Women loses frozen embryos fight

[Sportsdude]

[DIV class=logo]Ms Evans' reaction[/A] [/DIV][DIV class=footer]
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[Sportsdude]

Well, this case would never happen in the u.s., and if it did, it would be another roe v. wade type of decision.

My take: While embryos are created with both partner's consent, if the couple were to split as this is the case, I think the high court ruled correctly.

[Tech]

Sportsdude wrote:
Well, this case would never happen in the u.s., and if it did, it would be another roe v. wade type of decision. [/div][div]
Actually this has happened in the US and the court forced the father to pay child support . He didn't want to be a father, but was made one against his will.


[/div][div style="font-weight: bold;"]My take: While embryos are created with both partner's consent, if the couple were to split as this is the case, I think the high court ruled correctly.
I do too. Unless she's willing to take complete care of the child or children the man should not be forced to become a father against his will.

[TehBorken]

[div class="bo"]She said Mr Johnston had "become a father" when the embryos were created, and should have compassion for Ms Evans.

Ummm, NO, he didn't. That's her interpretation, and it's flawed. An embryo is not a child.

But for the sake of argument, let's assume she's right- shouldn't the father have a say in what happens? He says "no, I don't want a child". End of story. If she can insist on making him a father, he should be able to insist she get pregnant and carry a child (or two, or thee) to term.

Can't have it both ways, Ms Evans.
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[P.C.]

Hmmmm, I'm a little mixed on this one.  If it were his sperm that were the issue, I would fully support his right to change his mind.  Part of me thinks he did in fact give his consent when the process was put in motion.  There are too many flaws in this method of bringing children into this world.

One thing I absolutely disagree with, is her notion that it is her RIGHT to have a child.  It's not a right, it's a gift.  Sometimes nature decides who will get it and who won't.

[TehBorken]

P.C. wrote:
Hmmmm, I'm a little mixed on this one.  If it were his sperm that were the issue, I would fully support his right to change his mind.

Ahhh, but it is his sperm...embryos don't happen without sperm.


Part of me thinks he did in fact give his consent when the process was put in motion.  There are too many flaws in this method of bringing children into this world.[/div][div]
Then once the embryos exist, shouldn't he be able to force her to carry as many of them as he wants to term?

 [/div][div]One thing I absolutely disagree with, is her notion that it is her RIGHT to have a child.

Agreed. And I also think that no one should be able to make this kind of decision unilatterally. If she has a child from the embryos, he'll be expected (actually forced by the court) to support this child. It seems like a no-win situation for fathers if this kind of unilateral decision making is is allowed.

[tenkani]

Not to derail the convo, but this reminds me of the case where (if you're squeemish please don't read any further), a woman gave her boyfriend oral sex and, without his knowledge, transferred his money shot from her mouth to the freezer and then took the chowder down to a fertility clinic to be implanted.

The kicker is that she later demanded child support for the child she had covertly created.

Obviously, this case is a little more complicated, as it sounds like the man gave initial consent for the creation of the embryos. On the other hand, unlike in a typical pregnancy, the woman can't exactly claim that the embryos are "part of her body". Because they were created in a lab, it seems as though the father should have as much say over their fate as the mother.

[P.C.]

[SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"]Hmmmm, I'm a little mixed on this one.  If it were his sperm that were the issue, I would fully support his right to change his mind. [/SPAN]

Ahhh, but it [SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"]is[/SPAN] his sperm...embryos don't happen without sperm.


Well this is exactly where it gets a little murky for me.  He had to have already given his consent to have had his sperm used.  If he'd placed his sperm in the 'proper' place.....there would be no option to 'change his mind'. [/DIV] I'm not sure I agree with what she's trying to do on a moral ground, but it makes for an interesting legal argument.

[TehBorken]

tenkani wrote: [div style="font-style: italic;"]The kicker is that she later demanded child support for the child she had covertly created.[/div]
And I believe she got it, too.

[/div][div]Obviously, this case is a little more complicated, as it sounds like the man gave initial consent for the creation of the embryos.

Yes, but not necessarily the permission to implant and grow them. They were for "backup", so to speak. It's like saying that if you keep a fire extinguisher in your home then it's okay for someone to set fire to it. Not the best analogy, but.....


Because they were created in a lab, it seems as though the father should have as much say over their fate as the mother.[/div][div style="font-style: italic;"]
No one, male or female, should be forced to become a parent. Only men can be put in this position as it stands now. Can you imagine if the father had gone before the court and demanded that the mother be forced to implant the embryos and carry them to term? I don't see much difference in the end, to be honest.

[P.C.]

Can you imagine if the father had gone before the court and demanded that the mother be forced to implant the embryos and carry them to term? I don't see much difference in the end, to be honest.


Good point !!

[TehBorken]

P.C. wrote:
He had to have already given his consent to have had his sperm used.

And so did she.....so, if she doesn't want kids, should he be able to force her to carry them anyway? Or should he be able to hire a surrogate mother to carry them to term and then force the 'real' mother to pay child support?

[TehBorken]

I've been involved in divorce and custody issues both personally and professionally for about a decade. These things often sound like logic exercises, but they're real-world problems that have no simple solutions. Because of a number of factors including biology, it's very very difficult to find genuinely "fair" solutions to some of these situations.

As a divorced dad with custody I'm probably a little more sensitive (or 'touchy', lol) to some of these issues than I might normally be. But either way, I don't feel either parent should have absolute unchallengable power to make a decision to bring a child into the world.

[P.C.]

What a tangled web.  The one constant that I agree with, is nobody should be forced to be a parent.  I think when you muck with mother nature, there will always be issues with cloudly answers.  There needs to be some clearer guidelines defining consent and a few million other issues, before one is aloud to go down this path.  

[tenkani]

I have a friend who is married. He and his wife currently have four children, but none of them are biologically his (step-kids). His wife would like more, but he is not diggin that idea.

Anyway, his wife asked him for some sperm, so that it could be frozen. The way she explained it was that if he were to die, she would be able to use his sperm to make a baby.

On the one hand, you could argue that he should do it, since he will be dead, so why should he mind. But this guy's got a nagging hesitation. The concept of committing to the creation of a child that would be biologically his, yet knowing he will never meet the child, will never have the opportunity to be a real father...well, he finds the whole things disturbing to say the least.

Complicated is right.

[TehBorken]

tenkani wrote: [div style="font-style: italic;"]Anyway, his wife asked him for some sperm, so that it could be frozen. The way she explained it was that if he were to die, she would be able to use his sperm to make a baby.[/div]
The problem comes if she decides not to wait until he's dead, then he has no control over what happens next. Trust me, I've seen this and worked with fathers who've been in this position. They have no recourse at all. They can't prevent the mother from using the sperm and they can't force her to abort the child. In other words, they're just along for the ride (and to pay for the ride, too).


[/div][div]But this guy's got a nagging hesitation.

And he's right to have it. I'd tell him not to do it under any circumstances, or if he does to have the sperm stored under a court order specifically releasing the sperm only in the event of his death.