Love That Christian Tolerance

Started by TehBorken, Apr 11 06 10:26

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TehBorken

 tenkani wrote:  Again, I have to ask, how does a sin go from being punishable by death to being tacitly condoned by a church, and don't the fundies have a point in declaring such churches to be heading in a dangerously secular direction?

Lol, this kind of question makes most True Believers squirm like they've had a hot-sauce enema.

 
The real trouble with reality is that there's no background music.

tenkani

The problem, as I see it, is mixing critical thinking with matters of faith.

  In terms of critical thinking, the entire Christian house of cards is built on a crumbling foundation to put it mildly.

  So the comments in the bible about gays are metaphor, not to be taken literally. So, perhaps is the worldwide flood. Well, what about the existence of god himself? There is not more evidence for the Christian god than there is for the evil of homosexuality. It's ALL faith-based. You choose to use critical thinking to remove inconvenient commandments from your holy book, yet somehow the light of rationality never falls on the very foundation of your belief.  
For thou art with me; thy cream and thy sugar they comfort me
Thou preparest a carafe before me in the presence of Juan Valdez
Thou anointest my day with pep; my mug runneth over
Surely richness and taste shall follow me all the days of my life
And I will dwell in the house of coffee forever.

Sportsdude

 [LI]Role of women: Unlike most of the other Lutheran denominations in the United States, the ELCA ordains women as pastors, a practice that all three of its predecessor churches adopted in the 1970s. Some have become synod bishops since the formation of the ELCA. [/LI] [UL] [LI]Homosexuality: The church has officially welcomed [A title=Homosexuality href="vny!://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality"]homosexuals[/A] within its congregations since 1991. However, its stance and ongoing deliberations on homosexuality have been the subject of sharp clashes. Groups such as [A title="Lutherans Concerned/North America" href="vny!://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutherans_Concerned/North_America"]Lutherans Concerned/North America[/A] are presently advocating for greater strides toward full acceptance and equality for gay men and lesbians, while groups such as [A title="Solid Rock Lutherans" href="vny!://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_Rock_Lutherans"]Solid Rock Lutherans[/A] seek to reverse moves in this direction. [/LI][/UL] [DL] [DD]In language first proposed by the church's Conference of Bishops in 1993 and formally adopted by the Churchwide Assembly in 2005, the ELCA holds "there is basis neither in Scripture nor tradition for the establishment of an official ceremony by this church for the blessing of a homosexual relationship. We, therefore, do not approve such a ceremony as an official action of this church's ministry." However, in acknowledgement of the complex nature of this issue, the Churchwide Assembly also expressed its "[trust in] pastors and congregations to discern ways to provide faithful pastoral care for all to whom they minister." Though some on both sides of the issue have found this position to be tacit permission for same-sex blessings by individual pastors, no allowance is made for such blessing services in the church's governing documents, and the Churchwide Assembly declined to change church policy to provide for such services. [/DD][/DL] [DL] [DD]The ELCA does not presently permit the rostering of men or women in same-sex relationships. A resolution considered by the Churchwide Assembly would have generally maintained this stance, while providing a process for exceptions to be made for those in a committed homosexual relationship, on a case-by-case basis. After much debate, the resolution failed to meet the two-thirds supermajority required for its adoption, and was defeated. [/DD][/DL] This was the biggest cop out of all time, imo. The fact is that we do have lesbian and gay pastors and we have blessed gay relationships. The church just didn't want to have another skism like the one between us and the Missouri Synod back in '72. So its more or less up to the churches to decide what to do.

 

 [LI]Creationism/evolution: The ELCA does not have an official position on [A title=Creationism href="vny!://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism"]creation[/A] or [A title=Evolution href="vny!://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution"]evolution[/A].  And never will because we don't believe like the literalist Missouri Synod who believe god made the world in 7 24 hour days. Because the meaning of the word that the hebrew text uses for days actually means inifinite amount of time. Hence, God took his time in making the Earth.  (Enter evolution)

 [LI]Abortion: The issue of [A title=Abortion href="vny!://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion"]abortion[/A] has also been contentious within the ELCA. The church, in documents approved in 1991, set out its position on the matter as follows. The ELCA describes itself as "a community supportive of life," and encourages women to explore alternatives to abortion such as [A title=Adoption href="vny!://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adoption"]adoption[/A]. However, the church states that there are certain circumstances under which a decision to end a pregnancy can be "morally responsible." These include cases where the pregnancy "presents a clear threat to the physical life of the woman," situations where "the pregnancy occurs when both parties do not participate willingly in sexual intercourse," and "circumstances of extreme fetal abnormality, which will result in severe suffering and very early death of an infant." Regardless of the reason, the ELCA opposes abortion when "a fetus is developed enough to live outside a uterus with the aid of reasonable and necessary technology."  Thats the most liberal position you can get in christianity.

  [/LI]
"We can't stop here. This is bat country."

tenkani

LOL. I'm not trying to torture true believers, but I don't buy into the P.C. agenda that informs us that all beliefs are equal and deserving of respect.  
For thou art with me; thy cream and thy sugar they comfort me
Thou preparest a carafe before me in the presence of Juan Valdez
Thou anointest my day with pep; my mug runneth over
Surely richness and taste shall follow me all the days of my life
And I will dwell in the house of coffee forever.

TehBorken

  tenkani wrote:
The problem, as I see it, is mixing critical thinking with matters of faith.

To me, "faith" is mostly used as a way to get people to buy into stuff they'd never believe in any other way. It's used as a way to suspend (healthy) disbelief.

If airplanes were built with principles based on 'faith' they'd be falling out of the sky like snowflakes in a blizzard.

 
The real trouble with reality is that there's no background music.

tenkani

Your particular church does, indeed, sound fairly liberal and open-minded.

I'm impressed, although personally I'd lean more towards the Unitarian route and so avoid being tied to a holy book that's chock full of god-inspired genocide, rape and all manner of things we commonly consider to be evil.  
For thou art with me; thy cream and thy sugar they comfort me
Thou preparest a carafe before me in the presence of Juan Valdez
Thou anointest my day with pep; my mug runneth over
Surely richness and taste shall follow me all the days of my life
And I will dwell in the house of coffee forever.

TehBorken

  tenkani wrote:
[div style="font-style: italic;"]LOL. I'm not trying to torture true believers, but I don't buy into the P.C. agenda that informs us that all beliefs are equal and deserving of respect.[/div]
 Yep, that's one of the most ridiculous tenets of the classic "PC" belief system. And it makes the believers of that concept out to be dupes and fools.
 
The real trouble with reality is that there's no background music.

P.C.

How are these people.......

 

  reading the same book as these people

     
Sir Isaac Newton invented the swinging door....for the convenience of his cat.

Sportsdude

Hey I haven't gone to church since my pastor started sleeping with my youth minister during a YOUTH CONVENTION! in Atlanta a couple of years ago. So I'm really a non practising lutheran. I always will be a lutheran even if I don't go to church because well thats who I am. I don't agree with everything but hey to me its better then the rest of them. The problem I have with "American Christianity" is the evangelical movement. Therefore I do not partake in there thinking. They are the taliban and have hijacked the faith just like the extremist on the muslim side have done to Islam. I've looked in the mirror as they say at christianity as a whole in america and I don't like where its going.  
"We can't stop here. This is bat country."

P.C.

tenkani wrote....I don't buy into the P.C. agenda

      [img style="CURSOR: pointer" onclick=url(this.src); src="vny!://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/more/bigs/c020.gif" border=0]
Sir Isaac Newton invented the swinging door....for the convenience of his cat.

tenkani

If I haven't mentioned it already, check out the film The God Who Wasn't there. It's actually not as vitriolic as the title might suggest. One of its primary thrusts is that ignorance has been allowed to flourish because, in this culture, it's simply not acceptable to challenge someone's faith.

  In all other areas, when someone makes an assertion, it's acceptable to ask them to provide a rational explanation, and if they are unable to provide one, to assume for the time being that it's baseless.

  If I were to tell you that I believe human life begins at zygote because such a message spelled itself out in my alphabeti spaghetti, you'd think I was insane. If I tell you that I believe it because an invisible man decreed that it was true thousands of years ago, you're supposed to smile and accept it as my spiritual belief. Sorry, but believing in invisible people without evidence, whether it's the Christian god or Cthulhu, can be reasonably called insane.      
For thou art with me; thy cream and thy sugar they comfort me
Thou preparest a carafe before me in the presence of Juan Valdez
Thou anointest my day with pep; my mug runneth over
Surely richness and taste shall follow me all the days of my life
And I will dwell in the house of coffee forever.

tenkani

ROFL. I love you, P.C.

And your agenda is Ok with me    
For thou art with me; thy cream and thy sugar they comfort me
Thou preparest a carafe before me in the presence of Juan Valdez
Thou anointest my day with pep; my mug runneth over
Surely richness and taste shall follow me all the days of my life
And I will dwell in the house of coffee forever.

P.C.

LOL....tenkani......love you too !!!!

  I agree with your last post.  How do intelligent people who are capable of logic and reason justify answering a question that they don't know the answer to with "Because the Bible tells me so".

I trust my experiences in life more than I trust someone whom I have no proof existed.

  My religion is the golden rule.....I always try to live it  According to the Christian faith, I'm still going to hell.  Doesn't seem right somehow.
Sir Isaac Newton invented the swinging door....for the convenience of his cat.

TehBorken

 tenkani wrote:
[div style="font-style: italic;"]ROFL. I love you, P.C.[/div] [div style="font-style: italic;"]And your agenda is Ok with me     [/div]
 I second that, and I volunteer to rub PC's agenda until she feels better.
The real trouble with reality is that there's no background music.

TehBorken

 P.C. wrote:
How do intelligent people who are capable of logic and reason justify answering a question that they don't know the answer to with "Because the Bible tells me so".

Well...because the Bible tells them too!  
The real trouble with reality is that there's no background music.

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