1 in 136 U.S. Residents Behind Bars

[Sportsdude]

Seattle, Washington

pop. 575,816

   Crime: Total

Murder : 24

Forceable Rape : 145

Robbery : 1,588

Aggravated Assault : 2,041

Burglary : 7,734

Larceny Theft :  25,810

Vehicle Theft : 9,253

    Portland, Oregon

pop.  543,838

   Crime: Total

Murder : 29

Forceable Rape : 313

Robbery : 1,287

Aggravated Assault : 2,405

Burglary : 7,237

Larceny Theft :  28,322

Vehicle Theft :  5,936

      All Crime Statistics based on final 2004 FBI Crim Statistics.[/DIV]

 

[Sportsdude]

Gopher wrote:
 Impressive figures, but you won't change my mind - I'm still not going to visit America.[/DIV]
 [FONT size=7]LOLOLOL.[/FONT]

[FONT size=7][/FONT]

I must commend Seattle. They are doing good on the crime although everyone has room for improvement.

[Dissident]

A few years ago I was trying to impress upon a friend here in Vancouver the extent to which guns infect the urban landscape in the US, and I was able to pull out an example.  When I still lived in the US I discovered one of those "R&B oldies" stations driving through Cincinnati that I still listen to from time to time through their website.  Come the late Spring and Summer months, if I'm listening during their evening commute hours, the traffic report regularly features reports on places where traffic has been diverted because of police incidents with guns involved.  Cincinnati metro area's population is just a little under that of the GVRD, so I believe it provides an apt comparison.

One of the aspects of the massive incarceration rates in the US (especially the disproportionate jailing of African-American males) that bothers me the most is the trend of increasing penalties for minor non-violent drug offences--especially involving drugs that are not associated with violent behaviour (particularly marijuana and hallucinogenic drugs).  I don't use street drugs, but I've yet to see anyone get violent under the influence of these drugs--certainly not like a lot of the mean drunks I've witnessed.

I find it ironic that, just as numerous state and county governments started enacting laws requiring prisoners to work, and the development of the "prison-industrial complex" (a great source of cheap labour without having to go overseas), they enacted similar laws raising minimum sentences for non-violent drug offences.  Does it have anything to do with the fact that these offenders in general are better educated and have better behaviour records while incarcerated than violent offenders?  They make better workers, after all.

As far as I'm concerned, the government should rename these medium- and minimum-security prisons "plantations", as that seems to be a more apt term to use.
 

[Sportsdude]

And I doubt Vancouver gets race riots when a white cop shoots and kills a black man.

[Dissident]

Sportsdude wrote:
And I doubt Vancouver gets race riots when a white cop shoots and kills a black man.


To be perfectly honest, I don't see that happening here--but only because the black population seems to be more concentrated in New West (at least from my experience--most of the black people I've known here are first- and second-generation West Indian).

However, if you want to see the kind of overbearing racism that serves as a greater deterrent to any type of self-assertion by people of colour, go to the thread on DV from the past week after four members of a Congolese family were burned to death by an arson fire in their house.  The basic insinuation is that it had to have been gang-related.  If it had been a family from Russia I doubt people would have seized upon a Russian mafia connection . . .

I've only been here four years, but from what I see, the fact that the Native population hasn't been rioting here only serves to indicate how deeply entrenched, especially at the government level, racism is here in Vancouver.  To whit:  I haven't had occasion to deal with the VPD directly, but I live in a neighbourhood with a lot of drug and sex trade, so I witness police activity on a regular basis.  You don't even see that many police officers who are females, much less members of any visible minority.  In fact, the only non-white cop I've ever seen was an East Asian guy I saw working an undercover drug sting near my house.  Sure enough, the guy they were in the process of arresting was East Indian.

 

[TehBorken]

  Sportsdude wrote:
I wasn't talking about minors buying guns. I'm talking about criminals buying guns.

Well, actually, that's exactly what you were talking about- minors buying guns:

"[a href="http://discoverseattle.net/forums/index.php/topic,1440.msg15102.html#msg15102"]making it easy for criminals and even juveniles to buy as many guns as they want[/a]."

That's been shown to be false.

Here are some other things you've posted:

"And I don't know Washington State laws but in Missouri you can just buy just about anything at a gun show."

Shown by your own chart and stats to be untrue.

"For example you can by machine guns at a gun show and not have to go through a security check."

Not true, as shown by your own chart and by any perusal of State and Federal laws.


"We have no checks on guns or even bullets."

Not true, according to both State and Federal laws.


"NRA stopped legislation passing that would ban bullet proof vest piercing bullets."

That's not what happened, but it sure makes a tasty sound bite.


There are loop holes in missouri's system.

Maybe, but it's not the fault of an inanimate object any more than "loopholes" in sales of cars can be blamed on the cars themselves. Sorry.


And when the concealed weapon law passed it stated that people can have a hand gun in their car WITHOUT a permit.

I fully agree, a person should be allowed to transport a firearm in their vehicle without having to get a permit to do so. How else would you get it from point A to point B? I'm serious- how would you take it to the range if not in your car? Mail it?


Now this doesn't really bother me when it comes to responsible owners like you Tehborken.

How do you know I'm responsible? Because I say so? What bothers you is that you is that you appear to discount by default the idea of gun ownership by the general public. I don't, and I also recognize the inherent dangers in such a proposition.



"Bottom line when people are shooting holes into the Edward Jones Dome, roof from interstate 70 YOU HAVE A GUN PROBLEM."

No, you have a people problem, and I'm sorry you can't tell the difference. I've never seen a gun jump off the table, force its owner into a car and them make him or her go on a shooting spree. Usually it's the dumbf*ck holding the gun, and no amount of laws are going to alter their behavior- all you'll do is make it impossible for ordinary law-abiding people like me to defend themselves against the shitbags that are ignoring all your fancy laws and restrictions.

[Sportsdude]

Then how would you get guns off the streets?

How would you stop gang violence?

How would you stop easy access for criminals to get guns?

[Sportsdude]

 [DIV class=head2]JENNINGS: 16-year-old boy is fatally shot

[DIV class=byLine align=left][/DIV]
 [DIV class=byLine]05/21/2006

[DIV class=story align=left] [DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; FLOAT: left; WIDTH: 1px; HEIGHT: 125px"][/DIV]
A 16-year-old boy from Black Jack was shot and killed Friday night, Jennings police said Saturday.

The slain youth, Marquis Payne, was at the corner of Jennings Station Road and McLaran Avenue when a male shot him with a pistol, Detective Dave Joyce said.

Marquis staggered into a nearby store and told the clerk to call police before collapsing, Joyce said. Marquis died later at a hospital, he said.

Joyce said police believe they know what sparked the shooting but were still investigating.

[DIV class=story align=left]

[DIV class=story align=left] [DIV class=head2]

[DIV class=head2]ST. LOUIS: Police identify teen who was fatally shot

[DIV class=byLine align=left][/DIV]
 [DIV class=byLine]05/17/2006

[DIV class=story align=left] [DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; FLOAT: left; WIDTH: 1px; HEIGHT: 125px"][/DIV]
A teen who was fatally shot Monday night in the 2500 block of Texas Avenue has been identified as Ronald Buchanan, 16, St. Louis police said Tuesday.

Homicide detectives said they knew of no motive for the killing. A male apparently walked up to the youth on the sidewalk about 9:15 p.m., shot him in the head and then ran off. Buchanan lived in the 2200 block of Missouri Avenue.


[DIV class=story align=left]

[DIV class=story align=left]

[DIV class=story align=left]Two shootings that happend in the past couple of days. Atleast 5 of these happen every week. Most with no motive.[/DIV][/DIV]

[Sportsdude]

And then next door to st. louis is east st. louis one of the most crime ridden and scariest places in the united states.

  [A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Saint_Louis,_Illinois#Crime"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Saint_Louis,_Illinois#Crime[/A]

[TehBorken]

  Sportsdude wrote:
Then how would you get guns off the streets?

You can't. I thought you understood that. It would be like getting cars off the streets. It ain't gonna happen.

[/div]  [div]How would you stop gang violence?

Not by "outlawing" something they'll be able to get anyway! Get real- do you think that gang members go to gun stores or shows to buy their weapons? Hell no, they get them by theft and fencing, not by filling out forms and waiting 5 days. I mean, Hello?

Look, gang violence doesn't depend upon access to firearms. I thought you realized that.


How would you stop easy access for criminals to get guns?
How would you stop easy access for criminals to get drugs?


 

[TehBorken]

    Sportsdude wrote:
 [div class="head2"]JENNINGS: 50,000 residents not shot[/div] [div class="byLine" align="left"][/div]
 [div class="byLine"]05/21/2006[/div] [div class="story" align="left"] [div style="margin-top: 0px; float: left; width: 1px; height: 125px;"][/div]
Over 50,000 residents were not shot and killed Friday night, Jennings police said Saturday.

Many people just went about their business and were not killed by gun-wielding maniacs, Detective Dave Joyce said.

Residents went shopping, saw movies, and mowed their lawns, he said.

Joyce said police believe they know what sparked the lack of shootings but were still investigating. [/div] [div class="story" align="left"] [/div] [div class="story" align="left"] [div class="head2"] [/div] [div class="head2"]ST. LOUIS: Police identify thousands who were not  fatally shot[/div] [div class="byLine" align="left"][/div]
 [div class="byLine"]05/17/2006[/div] [div class="story" align="left"] [div style="margin-top: 0px; float: left; width: 1px; height: 125px;"][/div]
Thousands of residents who were not shot by firearms were identified as "just regular folks",  St. Louis police said Tuesday.

Homicide detectives said they knew of no motive for the lack of killings. A male apparently walked up to the youth on the sidewalk about 9:15 p.m., had a conversation and then ran off without killing anyone.  Police were shocked.
[/div] [div class="story" align="left"] [/div] [div class="story" align="left"] [/div] [div class="story" align="left"]Two shootings that happened in the past couple of days, as opposed to millions of shootings that didn't occur. At least 5,000,000 of these non-shootings happen every week. Most with no motive.[/div][/div]
   

[Sportsdude]

Stop trying to make this about gun owners. I'm talking about taking guns off the street in places where they shouldn't be and places where gun crime is out of control.  I'm talking about illegal guns. Guns and Gangs.

  Here's what North Saint Louis looks like:

 

 

 

 

 

[TehBorken]

 Sportsdude wrote:
Stop trying to make this about gun owners.

Stop trying to blame people's bad behavior on inanimate objects.


I'm talking about taking guns off the street in places where they shouldn't be and places where gun crime is out of control.  


Good for you. Don't step on my law-abiding toes while you do it.  



Here's what North Saint Louis looks like:

So what? Does North Saint Louis look like this because of guns, or could there just possibly be additional social factors at work?  

[Sportsdude]

So what? Does North Saint Louis look like this because of [SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"]guns,[/SPAN] or could there [SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"]just possibly[/SPAN] be additional social factors at work?



Both. Saint Louis is a de facto community when it comes to race.  Its been segregated from the begining with certain areas labeled as black areas where we've grown up being taught not to go to hence they're teaching us racism.  There are places where black people are taught not to go to because they will get checked, pulled over and harrassed by the police, especially at night.  In the seventies the white people that lived in North Saint Louis moved out to St. Charles County this was called the "white flight".  Since then the area has been in decline.  Urban decay has taken place but its due to many factors one of them gang crime and drug crime.  And this is where illegal guns come in.  To blame "the gun" for North St. Louis and now North St. Louis County's  problem on it would be wrong but it is a significant factor.

[TehBorken]

     Sportsdude wrote:
Both. Saint Louis is a de facto community when it comes to race.

That has nothing to do with guns, gun ownership, or misuse of firearms.


Its been segregated from the begining with certain areas labeled as black areas where we've grown up being taught not to go to hence they're teaching us racism.  There are places where black people are taught not to go to because they will get checked, pulled over and harrassed by the police, especially at night.  

That also has nothing to do with guns, gun ownership, or misuse of firearms.


In the seventies the white people that lived in North Saint Louis moved out to St. Charles County this was called the "white flight".  Since then the area has been in decline.

Again, that has nothing to do with guns, gun ownership, or misuse of firearms.


Urban decay has taken place but its due to many factors one of them gang crime and drug crime.  And this is where illegal guns come in.  To blame "the gun" for North St. Louis and now North St. Louis County's  problem on it [span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"]would be wrong [/span]but it is a significant factor.
I'd like to see that stats that support your opinions on how firearms destroyed this community and/or were responsible for any of the things you mentioned above. Because I can't make heads or tails of your "proof" and your claims have been thoroughly debunked. You yourself admit that "To blame "the gun" for North St. Louis and now North St. Louis County's  problem on it [span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"]would be wrong".[/span] Well, okay, so which is it?

You began by claiming all sorts of incredible shit- "anyone can buy a machine gun", "juveniles can buy machine guns", "no background checks are required for gun purchases", etc etc. And it was all FALSE- every bit of it.

Now you're going on and on about St. Louis neighborhoods and how crappy they are, but you refuse to acknowledge that [span style="text-decoration: underline;"]virtually every single thing you originally claimed is, in fact, utter crap. [/span]

Pardon me if I lose interest in this conversation from here on out, okay?


[font style="font-style: italic;" size="1"]Edited to tone down my language - tb[/font]