Love That Christian Tolerance

[P.C.]

Sin is disobedience to god. For instance, if your god has commanded that anyone who commits X act shall be put to death, it's fair to assume that he doesn't want you to do it. If you go ahead and do it, you've sinned.





Pardon my simpicity in this debate, but isn't this the ultimate hypocracy ?   Is it not considered a sin to take the life of another being ?  

[Schadenfreude]

Homer: If the Bible has taught us nothing else -- and it hasn't -- it's that girls should stick to girl sports, such as hot oil wrestling, foxy boxing, and such and such.

[Gopher]

P.C. wrote:
 Sin is disobedience to god. For instance, if your god has commanded that anyone who commits X act shall be put to death, it's fair to assume that he doesn't want you to do it. If you go ahead and do it, you've sinned.





Pardon my simpicity in this debate, but isn't this the ultimate hypocracy ?   Is it not considered a sin to take the life of another being ?

 
 Not by the American government

[tenkani]

Taking a human life is not, in itself a sin according to the Christian faith.

  The commandment "thou shalt not kill" was incorrectly translated. The Hebrew word for "murder" became "kill", thus changing the meaning.

  Read the old testament. God commands his followers to kill thousands of women and children. Obviously, killing is not inherently sinful.

[CK]

I am so confused on this topic. I have an amazing friend in Los Angeles. He is openly gay and is very Christian. Stained glass picture of Jesus on his front room living room. He said there is actually a large gay Christian group in LA. I don't know much about it though?

[tenkani]

Yup. There's also an extremely large and active gay Christian community in San Francisco.

  I heard a gay man speak about it and his persepective (which may or may not be representative of others) was that he had been raised Christian and it simply felt like home. The ceremonies were beautiful and he did not want to give it up. Thus the rise of churches willing to accept self-identified, active homosexuals into their ranks.

  I'm torn on the issue. I applaud their acceptance of gays, yet on a philosophical level, again, the fundies actually have a more rational (assuming you believe the bible is the word of God) perspective.

  I think fundies are generally out of their minds, but demanding that they accept gays into their schools simply doesn't make sense. And again, as a homosexual, why would you want to attend a school that considers you to be sinful and walking the path of damnation?

[Sportsdude]

Well my church the ELCA, has gay and lesbian pastors. Heck, our sister church in Canada ELCIC blesses same sex unions. We believe Jesus was accepting of everyone.  The only problem with the ELCA is that they won't adress the gay and lesbian issue nationally fearing backlash from conservative media and a skism by the rural ELCA churches that don't necessarily believe in that issue. The ELCA and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada (ELCIC) are the only reason why I still believe. The rest of the christian sects in my opinion have been hijacked by evangelicals types and stubborn mules who fear change.

[tenkani]

Hmmm, I don't believe the Jesus portrayed in the bible was accepting of everyone. He was willing to forgive those who were willing to change. If a sinner decided to live a "life of sin", however, do you really think Jesus would just shrug and pat him or her on the head?

  Forgiveness and tolerance are not the same thing. A church should be willing to forgive sin, but to ask it to tolerate sin simply because the sin has become acceptable to the non-believing community doesn't exactly make sense.

  Again, I have to ask, how does a sin go from being punishable by death to being tacitly condoned by a church, and don't the fundies have a point in declaring such churches to be heading in a dangerously secular direction?

  I'm obviously taking the devil's advocate position here, but I think it's a valid question nontheless.

[Sportsdude]

The ELCIC has an about us section that explains this really well. Basically, we take the bible for what it is a book. We are not literalists. For instance we have women pastors. I don't see that many other church organisations having women pastors.

[tenkani]

Cool beans. So if the bible is not to be taken literally, you guys consider it to be metaphor? What is the symbolic meaning of demanding that homosexuals be put to death?

[P.C.]

First of all, Christian Tolerance is an oxymoron at best.

I don't know the Bible well enough to make any references to it.....but I have noticed the interpretation of it hugely distorted.  How else can there be so many sects that have such different beliefs and behaviours and yet all be following the same book.  

[Legion]

 The thing I remember about the early christians (read Gnostics) is that the body is a part of the devils world and something to be rid of lickity split. There were some early sects that wouldn't procreate on these grounds so abstinence was obviously the key. Maybe it's still the key?  

[tenkani]

That's the problem, P.C. Too many possible interpretations. So it's metaphor. Or parts of it are. Which parts? What if Jesus Christ himself is a metaphor? What if the bible is simply a book of geneology, stories and a sprinkling of history, meant to teach moral lessons? What if some of those moral lessons are not just outdated, but according to everything we now know, evil?  

[tenkani]

Yeah, Legion. Some of my ancestors used to have sex with a sheet in between them to prevent unnecessary contact of flesh. If that's the road to enlightenment, I don't want any part of it    

[Sportsdude]

 [LI]Interpretation of Scripture: Generally speaking, ELCA clergy are less likely to take the [A title="Biblical inerrancy" href="vny!://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy"]Bible literally[/A] than those in the LCMS or WELS. ELCA seminaries and colleges generally teach a form of [A title="Higher Criticism" href="vny!://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_Criticism"]historical-critical[/A] method of biblical analysis, an approach that, broadly speaking, seeks to understand the scriptures and the process of canon formation with reference to historical and social context. For a brief description, see [A class="external text" title=vny!://www.elca.org/questions/Results.asp?recid=17 href="vny!://www.elca.org/questions/Results.asp?recid=17"]What is the Bible?[/A] on the ELCA website. [/LI] Comparison of LCMS and ELCA [SPAN class=reference][SUP class=plainlinksneverexpand id=ref_LCMSELCA][A class="external autonumber" title=vny!://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_in_America#endnote_LCMSELCA href="vny!://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_in_America#endnote_LCMSELCA"][1][/A][/SUP][/SPAN]

  [TABLE class=wikitable] [TBODY] [TR] [TH]Number[/TH] [TH]LCMS[/TH] [TH]ELCA[/TH][/TR] [TR] [TD]1[/TD] [TD]Believe in triune God[/TD] [TD]Same[/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD]2[/TD] [TD]Accept Lutheran Confessions as true teachings of biblical faith[/TD] [TD]Same[/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD]3[/TD] [TD]Believe that God comes to us through the Word and the sacraments[/TD] [TD]Same[/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD]4[/TD] [TD]Teach justification by grace through faith[/TD] [TD]Same[/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD]5[/TD] [TD]Believe that the Bible should not be subject to higher critical methods[/TD] [TD]Believe that the Bible can speak effectively through the use of higher critical study[/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD]6[/TD] [TD]Believe that the Bible restricts women from certain church positions including ordained ministry[/TD] [TD]Believes the Bible permits, even encourages, full participation by women in the life of the church[/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD]7[/TD] [TD]High degree of doctrinal agreement necessary before fellowship is possible[/TD] [TD]Agreement on a more basic level is sufficient for fellowship[/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]