Who Owns it ?

Started by P.C., Aug 17 07 11:07

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P.C.

  [table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="463"] [tbody] [tr] [td valign="top" width="323"] [div]I have zero understanding of how museums can just take ownership of things.   Anybody can explain this to me?



Valuable cross from Middle Ages found in trash
[/div][font color="#999999"]By VERONIKA OLEKSYN[/font]
[/td] [td valign="top" width="48"][a onmouseover="movepic('button4','vny!://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSImages2003/digg_on.gif')" onmouseout="movepic('button4','vny!://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSImages2003/digg_off.gif')" href="vny!://digg.com/submit?phase=2&url=vny!%3A%2F%2Fcnews.canoe.ca%2FCNEWS%2FWeirdNews%2F2007%2F08%2F16%2F4422837-ap.html&title=Valuable+cross+from+Middle+Ages+found+in+trash&bodytext=VIENNA%2C+Austria+%28AP%29+-+A+valuable+cross+dating+to+the+Middle+Ages+has+turned+up+in+a+trash+bin+in+Austria.%0D%0A%0D%0A&topic=offbeat_news" target="_blank"][/a][/td] [td valign="top" width="48"][a onmouseover="movepic('button1','vny!://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSImages2003/email_on.gif')" onmouseout="movepic('button1','vny!://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSImages2003/email_off.gif')" href="jvascript:sendit%28%29;"][/a][/td] [td valign="top" width="43"][a onmouseover="movepic('button2','vny!://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSImages2003/print_on.gif')" onmouseout="movepic('button2','vny!://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSImages2003/print_off.gif')" href="vny!://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/WeirdNews/2007/08/16/pf-4422837.html"][/a][/td] [td valign="top" width="44"][a onmouseover="movepic('button3','vny!://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSImages2003/write_on.gif')" onmouseout="movepic('button3','vny!://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSImages2003/write_off.gif')" href="vny!://rapids.canoe.ca/cgi-bin/reg/NR-cust_service.pl?MODE=CUSTOMER_SERVICE&LOOK=CNEWS"][/a][/td][/tr][/tbody][/table][table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="463"][tbody][tr][td valign="top" width="463"][img]vny!://www.canoe.ca/CanoeGlobalnav/invisible.gif" height="1" width="463"]
  [table class="microcell" align="right" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="250"] [tbody] [tr] [td class="microcell"][img]vny!://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/WeirdNews/2007/08/16/K081605AU.jpg" width="250"][font color="#999999"]  [img]vny!://www.canoe.ca/CanoeGlobalnav/invisible.gif" height="5" width="4"]
A valuable cross dating to the Middle Ages has turned up in a trash bin in Austria. (AP Photo/Kerstin Joensson)[/font][/td][/tr][/tbody][/table] [/p]VIENNA, Austria (AP) - A valuable cross dating to the Middle Ages has turned up in a trash bin in Austria.  [/p]Police in Salzburg say a woman looking for old crockery in a trash container in the western Austrian town of Zell am See stumbled upon the precious piece in 2004. They say she apparently she had no idea of it's value and just stashed it behind her couch.  [/p]Now experts say the cross could be worth as much as C$575,000.  [/p]A local museum has custody of it, at least for the moment. And whether the trash-foraging woman, who has not been identified, will get so much as a penny for her find has yet to be determined.  [/p]Officials say it appears the cross had been looted from a Polish art collection by the Nazis during the Second World War.  [/p]The Austria Press Agency quoted police official Christian Krieg as saying the woman found the cross after a hotel owner who lived in Zell am See died and his home was being cleared by relatives.[/p]  [/p] [a href="vny!://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/WeirdNews/2007/08/16/4422837-ap.html"]vny!://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/WeirdNews/2007/08/16/4422837-ap.html[/a][/p][/td][/tr][/tbody][/table]
Sir Isaac Newton invented the swinging door....for the convenience of his cat.

Gopher

It's like the Euuropean stately homes, where  'robbers' charge people to see things that were stolen from their own ancestors.
A fool's paradise is better than none.

Russ

Gopher wrote:
 It's like the Euuropean stately homes, where  'robbers' charge people to see things that were stolen from their own ancestors.[/DIV]
 LOL! I like your dry statements Gopher!
Mercy to the Guilty is Torture to the Victims

P.C.

So, nobody knows anything about this.  It's something I've always been curious about.  

  Could there ever be a possibility that I could own something passed down through generations that a museum could just...claim ?  I don't understand.
Sir Isaac Newton invented the swinging door....for the convenience of his cat.

Sportsdude

  P.C. wrote:
So, nobody knows anything about this.  It's something I've always been curious about.  
 
Could there ever be a possibility that I could own something passed down through generations that a museum could just...claim ?  I don't understand.

Yup. C'est la vie.

That lady has about as much ownership of that cross, as my family does of the family home in Hungary that was ours for 300 years until we were evicted because we were 'germans'.

Because even if she did claim it, its still not hers, the museums would argue, since it was truly stolen by the Nazis and they'd win.
Governments which run the museums can make up all the rules they want to. The Louvre in Paris has so many paintings that are now 'the property of France' that have never been rightfully theirs its hysterical. You'd think the Mona Lisa is Italian property but not according to the French law, its the sole responsibility of the head of the Louvre.

They'll make the excuse "well for safe keeping we should have it because who knows you are just an 'average' citizen."  That excuse usually works.

 
"We can't stop here. This is bat country."

P.C.

Well....I don't think we're talking about the same thing.  That really didn't explain what I'm confused about at all.
Sir Isaac Newton invented the swinging door....for the convenience of his cat.

Sportsdude

what's not to understand? Once a musuem has its hand's on something its theirs no matter who had it before them. Like the article says it was a possession of some local hotel owner. He orginally probably bought it after the war.  The Nazi's stole it from a museum in Poland. Therefore the piece of work is a 'stolen artifact' and by law that means even if you 'own' it, its not yours.
Steven Spielberg bought a painting that was orginal that he thought was legally bought. Turned out it wasn't, it was stolen. He paid millions for it. But the museum came by and just took it because of the fact it was 'stolen'.
Which is funny because most works a museum have were stolen from someone to give to the museum (usually in war plundering). lol

Its a stolen piece of art, its not legally anybodys.
 
"We can't stop here. This is bat country."

P.C.

Then why is it the museums?
Sir Isaac Newton invented the swinging door....for the convenience of his cat.

P.C.

SD....this cross was from the MIDDLE AGES
Sir Isaac Newton invented the swinging door....for the convenience of his cat.

49er

are you sure SD?  I remember reading museums returning stolen artifacts back to original owners

Sportsdude

 yes I know it was from the middle ages. But back then all the 'holy empires' wanted artifacts to call home especially after the crusades. So you get these shroud of turin's and what not which could be and might be something but they were just stolen from a guy in Palestine who said "yeah that's Jesus' tomb cloth" without checking if it actually was.

The current laws state if something was stolen from a museum its the officially the museums and you own an illegal artifact. Even if the last time it was in a museum was before world war II.

Ownership laws don't apply to 'precious' artifacts.
   
"We can't stop here. This is bat country."

Sportsdude

  "An investigation disclosed that, until the Second World War, the cross had been part of an art collection belonging to Izabella Elzbieta of Czartoryski Dzialinska, Poland.  Before the outbreak of war, Elzbieta tried to hide the piece from the Nazis by concealing it in the cellar of a building in Warsaw. But the Nazis found it in 1941 and later brought it, along with other items from Elzbieta's collection, to a castle in Austria. It is unclear what happened next."[/p]
[font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"]The Commission for Looted Art in Europe (CLAE) is the expert representative body in Europe dealing with all matters relating to Nazi looted art and other cultural property.[/font][font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"]  It helps families, communities and institutions worldwide with research, identification and recovery of looted cultural property.[/font]CLAE is an independent, non profit-making body which is mandated to represent the European Council of Jewish Communities (ECJC) and the Conference of European Rabbis (CER)[/p][div align="left"][font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Released in connection with the Washington Conference on Holocaust-Era Assets, Washington, DC, December 3, 1998
                 
In developing a consensus on non-binding principles to assist in resolving issues relating to Nazi-confiscated art, the Conference recognizes that among participating nations there are differing legal systems and that countries act within the context of their own laws. [/font] [/div]               [font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"]
1. Art that had been confiscated by the Nazis and not subsequently restituted should be identified. [/font][font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"]2. Relevant records and archives should be open and accessible to researchers, in accordance with the guidelines of the International Council on Archives.[/font][font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"]
[/font][font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"]3. Resources and personnel should be made available to facilitate the identification of all art that had been confiscated by the Nazis and not subsequently restituted. [/font][font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"]
[/font][/p][font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"]4. In establishing that a work of art had been confiscated by the Nazis and not subsequently                 restituted, consideration should be given to unavoidable gaps or ambiguities in the provenance in light of the passage of time and the circumstances of the Holocaust era. [/font][font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"]
[/font][/p][font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"]5. Every effort should be made to publicize art that is found to have been confiscated by the Nazis and not subsequently restituted in order to locate its pre-War owners or their heirs. [/font][font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"]
[/font][/p][font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"]6. Efforts should be made to establish a central registry of such information.                  [/font][font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"]
[/font][/p][font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"]7. Pre-War owners and their heirs should be encouraged to come forward and make known their claims to art that was confiscated by the Nazis and not subsequently restituted.[/font]
[/p][font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"][/font][font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"]8. If the pre-War owners of art that is found to have been confiscated by the Nazis and not subsequently restituted, or their heirs, can be identified, steps should be taken expeditiously to achieve a just and fair solution, recognizing this may vary according to the facts and circumstances surrounding a specific case.[/font]
[/p][font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"][/font][font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"]9. If the pre-War owners of art that is found to have been confiscated by the Nazis, or their heirs, can not be identified, steps should be taken expeditiously to achieve a just and fair solution.[/font]
[/p][font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"][/font][font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"]10. Commissions or other bodies established to identify art that was confiscated by the Nazis and to assist in addressing ownership issues should have a balanced membership.[/font]
[/p]11. Nations are encouraged to develop national processes to implement these principles, particularly as they relate to alternative dispute resolution mechanisms for resolving ownership issues.
[/p][a href="vny!://www.lootedartcommission.com/lootedart_washingtonprinciples.htm"]vny!://www.lootedartcommission.com/lootedart_washingtonprinciples.htm[/a][font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"]So, if anyone is getting paid apparently for this its the people of the art collection that was stolen from the Nazi's. (if anyone from the family survived the war). I doubt they'll get it back though. Probably they'll just go down as the last owners and get paid a sum.
[/font][/p][/p]
 
"We can't stop here. This is bat country."

P.C.

I should have been more specific or not used that as my example.

  The cross sparked the question, but I am more curious about the 'ownership' of something, in broader terms.

  I remember a story a few years back about a man who purchased some old maps from a thrift store.  They were maps that charted the original journey of an explorer (can't remember....doesn't matter).  Anyways....he bought them for a dime.  Turns out they were oringinal maps and deemed priceless.  The museum scoops in, and the man is no longer the owner.  

  How come.
Sir Isaac Newton invented the swinging door....for the convenience of his cat.

Russ

I agree PC.. I have wondered this before and your post made me do a bunch of research again.

  From what I remember some countries have laws that if items are ancient or fall into a certain category (ie priceless art or historical value) then it becomes the property of the government. Different countries have different laws... Ive sent an email off to a canadian museum to see what they say.      
Mercy to the Guilty is Torture to the Victims

P.C.

Oh cool Russ.....good for you!  I'd be interested in their response.  There are so many stories out there that just don't make sense.  I've even heard of family heirlooms that have been claimed by museums....even with documentation that it IS from their family.
Sir Isaac Newton invented the swinging door....for the convenience of his cat.