[a href="vny!://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/416542"]vny!://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/416542[/a]
all the tories need is a majority in the senate and in the house and abortion becomes illegal.
[a href="vny!://www.thetelegram.com/index.cfm?sid=125825&sc=87"]vny!://www.thetelegram.com/index.cfm?sid=125825&sc=87[/a]
[a href="vny!://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=eacf6bb9-bfea-4e1d-a75b-87c3fd4bd2ed"]vny!://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=eacf6bb9-bfea-4e1d-a75b-87c3fd4bd2ed[/a]
Guess the Poop..er, I mean pope had some influence going to New York!?
How come John Lennon was shot, but nobody will shoot the pope (name not capitalized on purpose).
ratzinger has bigger issues to worry about I think.
although you know rule number 1 in catholic land, we need butts in the seats to pay out our abusing priests!
rather cynical view of course, but makes sense. Ratzinger said at one point women having their period was murder...
I would love to pay abusing priests, with a shotgun blast to their private parts.
I am not 100% sure I support abortion, or not. I need more heartfelt thoughts on that.
But, just in general, does the catholic church has anything to do with Jesus?
Van wrote:
I would love to pay abusing priests, with a shotgun blast to their private parts.
Need a sidekick?
I just read this from the link:
The bill, according to its wording, would make "it an offence to injure, cause the death of or attempt to cause [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff40"]the death of a child [/FONT]before or during its birth while committing or attempting to commit an offence against the mother."
[FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00"]The bill also proposes a minimum prison term of 10 years.[/FONT]
OMFG. 10 years min in jail for abortion! Grrr, I would really love to re-write my once submitted Uni essay on why abortion needs to remain legal.
A child? It's just a bunch of cells and blood in the beginning of first trimester. I can perhaps understand the "child" word if the Mother is in the 2nd or 3rd trimester, which usually calls for a more complicated abortion procedure. But I couldn't see it as a "child."
that is dealing with the law, but you could interpret and rightly so the definition of a "child" in the future battle of abortion rights. This bill gives legal rights basically, they have done this down in the states of course. The next step is banning 3rd and 4th term abortions because of these criminal law add on like bill C-484. Then you start to go after the first term on basis of these laws as well.
Sportsdude wrote:
The next step is banning 3rd [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff40"]and 4th term abortions.[/FONT][FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff40"] [/FONT] There's a 4th term? I thought there were only three trimesters/terms... oh gawd..I'm so out of it.
oops been slipping lately, stupid sociology final prep. for the final in 2hrs.
of course only three
in the states we demonize those as "partial birth abortions" which have been federally banned on the basis of cruelty because of these simple criminal laws like c-484 which give the unborn personhood status. Basically this bill gives the anti-abortion folks the open door to go to the Supreme Court and say "hey this should be illegal", Supreme Court then looks at the law and since they are a bunch of lawyers, they look at the legality of the claim etc. Then of course Harper can appoint judges that have anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage views, which then politicizes the bench like the U.S. Supreme Court...
Give them enough time and see how far back the clock will go. You will be amazed at how quickly your rights can be taken away at a stroke of a pen.
Don't put your trust in Liberals on this, they haven't had a leader in years with balls and Dion didn't even show up to vote on this on the first reading. This will pass and the Liberals will forget, the party is too big, it spans too many political views 12 Liberals voted for this on the first reading for example. So they (the party) don't do anything productive (as in doing something the people want) in order to not offend one side of the party or the other. Rather comical/sad.
You lost me at demonize. Uh, what are you trying to say?
okay,
3rd tri abortions have been banned in the United States because anti-abortion groups er 'pro-life' (which is rather hysterical, the unborn are more important to them then the born, same goes for Canadian far right as well I'm almost certain) have used these laws that give an unborn fetus person status to use to their favour.
If a fetus is considered a 'child' after the 1st tri, then any harm done to the child after the 1st could be considered ethically wrong or murder. That's their (anti) view point and technically this is what the aim of these groups are. They're not going to get an all out ban (although parliamentary system it would be easier to do so) so they chip away at loop holes.
So in this case, anti-abortion folks can go to court challenging 'late term', 'partial birth', 3rd term abortions as cruel and they also well get to change the meanings around like saying 'partial birth' instead of third term.
i hope i didn't lose you...
Just explaining what goes on in the states, will eventually happen here in Canada if people are not more self aware of who they elect to parliament etc.
Van wrote:
I am not 100% sure I support abortion, or not. I need more heartfelt thoughts on that.[hr style="width: 100%; height: 2px;"]
without going into personal stories because abortion is a personal issue based on choice, something the government has no right in medeling in. Take the religious views of a religion with its own political gains in this (cynical view, more birth control methods and abortion right become available = nobody in the pews to give these church body/political pressure bodies money. Its good business sense for the religions to be against freedom...) anyway take out that view and its this:
do you believe that women should have total control of their own bodies and reproductive rights? Take religion out of the issue and its a matter of rights. Should governments be able to decide what and what you can't do as a person, is that a free society?
or another question is do you want the government putting up barriers into your personal affairs? Do you want the government to say "Van, I'm sorry you don't control your own body, we do?"
------
catholic church has nothing to do with Jesus, roman catholicism was started by a roman emperor who decided he wanted to embrace this 'christianity' with roman paganism. Hence you go to a catholic church and you see idols, saints, etc. That's not Jesus related. Catholics believe they are the 'one true church' directly started by Peter and nobody else has the same divine path to God.
Its a religion in itself really, you pray to the pope so he can pray to Jesus. You pray to idols and saints to give you strength. Sound too Roman mythological? It's because it is... but shh don't tell a catholic this, they'll get mad and offended and say you are anti-catholic omg and you'll be on tv being screamed at by Bill Donahue and the Catholic League. Jesus would laugh at the head of the church wearing all this gold crowns and stuff, that's what Jesus fought against in the jewish hierarchy.
then to go even futher the old testament is about an up down type God. God commands you to do this, obey me now weak and petty person or you will die etc. New Testament is about all inclusive, happy, lets gather around in a circle and talk God, we are in this together view of God in Jesus. This view of God has compassion for people and is caring. While in the old testament, God is a cranky old man who sees you as nothing and you are just a pawn to him. Basically in the old testament if you don't follow along you will be killed, off with your head.
Protestantism is generally viewed as the 'lets hold hands in a circle' (the mainstream and liberal churches are) while the orthodox, catholic and hardline protestant churches believe in the old testament way of things and will condemn you to hell, excommunicate you etc. They also believe that THEY know what's best for you and you better follow along young man or you'll spend the rest of your life in eternal damnation sort of thing (old testament).
catholic church has nothing to do with Jesus, roman catholicism was started by a roman emperor who decided he wanted to embrace this 'christianity' with roman paganism. Hence you go to a catholic church and you see idols, saints, etc. That's not Jesus related. Catholics believe they are the 'one true church' directly started by Peter and nobody else has the same divine path to God.
Its a religion in itself really, you pray to the pope so he can pray to Jesus. You pray to idols and saints to give you strength. Sound too Roman mythological? It's because it is... but shh don't tell a catholic this, they'll get mad and offended and say you are anti-catholic omg and you'll be on tv being screamed at by Bill Donahue and the Catholic League. Jesus would laugh at the head of the church wearing all this gold crowns and stuff, that's what Jesus fought against in the jewish hierarchy.
Where DO you get this stuff.
"shhh...don't tell a catholic this, they'll get mad and offended and say you are anti-catholic omg...."
That's quite silly. I would think the only thing they might find offensive is your speaking of something in a manner that suggests you know what you're talking about. I don't know which Catholic church you go to, but you must have had both your eyes and ears closed. (so did I for the most part....but I did pick up a couple comments about Jesus once or twice over the 20 years that I attended church)
I was just being cheeky saying does it have anything to do with Jesus. Thread kind of went woah...!!!
where do I get this stuff? I had lutheran and catholic catechism and was forced to take part in catholic rituals like confession etc. (which I found rather cool really, except I knew the father (priest) from school so it wasn't as random as you see in the movies, felt like a form of counselling)
religion class, took 4 years of intensive religion courses + 15 years of church hierarchy stuff with my family connections to all 3 church bodies, grew up with the fear of seeing my uncle being excommunicated because he was deemed too liberal to be a pastor and seeing the catholic part of my family ridiculed at funerals, sermons etc. I was going to be a missionary up until high school ( i would have been a different kind of missionary though, I don't see dogma too well, just the need for a better society/purpose driven life mainly through left wing social change lol, would have worked well in south america but oh well that's not my calling anymore).
Then I had a falling out (religious right part of the family, pastor was caught being a fraud, just got tired of the church politics, wasn't really dogmatic in an ever increasing dogmatic religious society). I come from a very religious family background of catholics, hardline right protestant lutherans and hippie left lutherans. I didn't go into Jesus in explaining just more church politics and how they view things which I was sadly a part of most of my life. Overall the catholics that are in charge view Jesus as an up down guy like the Old Testament, which is not the true essence of Jesus.
St. Louis Archbishop excommunicates churches that don't agree with him, he doesn't give communion to catholic democrats and removes himself from charity organizations that help kids with cancer because Sheryl Crow is on a children's board, who happens to be pro-choice. That's the catholic church I know, one of exclusion and yet they wonder (the hierarchy) why nobody goes to church anymore.. Anyway I'm not catholic, they can fix their own problems, which they never will because they live in a glass house.
Van wrote:
I was just being cheeky saying does it have anything to do with Jesus. Thread kind of went woah...!!!
haha no biggie, you got my brain going though for my sociology final. lol
SD wrote: That's the catholic church I know
So you're generally speaking from YOUR world...not THE world.
I'm not defending nor condemning the Catholic church...it just wasn't for me. But to say that the Catholic religion has nothing to do with Jesus is....well, simply false. Your views are your own interpretation of how things were in your world....and you're certainly entitled to express opinions that are based on your interpretation of how things were in your world...but not all of them will necessarily be based in fact.
There are a lot of things I grew up believing that were a certain way, until I started learning that it was only that way in my world....or in the world of my family. As my world broadened, (which usually happens when one leaves home) I was often surprised to discover that I had only been exposed to the world according to my family and many of my beliefs were quickly dispelled. (religious and otherwise...many many otherwise) Imagine my shock when I discovered the whole world didn't eat french toast with ketchup (//vny!://discoverseattle.net/forums/richedit/smileys/Happy/12.gif)
I have my own reasons for turning my back on the church. My folks do too.
There is not enough space on this forum for me to describe how much I disrespect the catholic church and the pope.
Interesting comments though sports.
I still have no idea what SD is babbling about.
Could I just bring some booze?
*munches on popcorn*
Haven't the catlickers done enough to screw up the world already? - they're worse than the US gov. They use guilt rather than guns, but not always - the Indians thank you very much for abusing and murdering their children in your residential schools..
Mortgentaller has done the work. The Supreme Court of Canada has spoken - 20 years ago. A fetus is not a person until out of the birth canal. Abortion must remain legal. We don't want to go back to back alley abortions. The coathangers' secondary function should not extend beyond being a car-breaking instrument.
Love your sisters!
i clarified in my second post about religion that in this case, this has nothing to do with Jesus and as a whole the church is run and believes in a top down god. (good works to get to christ, paying repentance etc that's not new testament stuff). so i don't know why you are critical of me, I was just explaining one facet of a church in how it sees itself structure wise.
I didn't follow your transition from politics to Jesus.
I'm not being critical of you....I'm debating some of your comments. These ones in particular....
(I am aware that this is your view of things...I was just calling you on stating it as fact.)
[FONT size=2]catholic church has nothing to do with Jesus, roman catholicism was started by a roman emperor who decided he wanted to embrace this 'christianity' with roman paganism. Hence you go to a catholic church and you see idols, saints, etc. That's not Jesus related. Catholics believe they are the 'one true church' directly started by Peter and nobody else has the same divine path to God.
Its a religion in itself really, you pray to the pope so he can pray to Jesus. You pray to idols and saints to give you strength. Sound too Roman mythological? It's because it is... but shh don't tell a catholic this, they'll get mad and offended and say you are anti-catholic omg and you'll be on tv being screamed at by Bill Donahue and the Catholic League. Jesus would laugh at the head of the church wearing all this gold crowns and stuff, that's what Jesus fought against in the jewish hierarchy. [/FONT]
Van wrote:
I am not 100% sure I support abortion, or not. I need more heartfelt thoughts on that. ..................
I've always felt this way too.
P.C. wrote:
I didn't follow your transition from politics to Jesus.
I'm not being critical of you....I'm debating some of your comments. These ones in particular....
(I am aware that this is your view of things...I was just calling you on stating it as fact.)
[em]catholic church has nothing to do with Jesus, roman catholicism was started by a roman emperor who decided he wanted to embrace this 'christianity' with roman paganism. Hence you go to a catholic church and you see idols, saints, etc. That's not Jesus related. Catholics believe they are the 'one true church' directly started by Peter and nobody else has the same divine path to God.
Its a religion in itself really, you pray to the pope so he can pray to Jesus. You pray to idols and saints to give you strength. Sound too Roman mythological? It's because it is... but shh don't tell a catholic this, they'll get mad and offended and say you are anti-catholic omg and you'll be on tv being screamed at by Bill Donahue and the Catholic League. Jesus would laugh at the head of the church wearing all this gold crowns and stuff, that's what Jesus fought against in the jewish hierarchy.[/em]
that's true, what does the virgin mary and saints have to do with Jesus? They don't, Jesus would laugh, that's the Roman aspect to catholicism. The secret orders, turning historical church figures into saints that's not new testament or christianity. Why do you think lots of people think catholic church is one big cult? Maybe it has to do with church practices that are unrelated to the foundation of christianity. lol
Why do you think lots of people think catholic church is one big cult?
I think you'll find that lots of people think that a lot of religions are one big cult.
true.. but within the protestant community there's this element of catholic church is a cult going on. When I meant that the people in the church have gone mad, they can't take constructive criticism even when its good. You can't say anything bad, even if you are a catholic yourself or you will get spat at. Because of the priest abuse thing you've got the defenders (hardliners) and the people who just leave. So the ones defending still have this weird mentality going on where you can't dicuss anything with them or they'll call you out a 'lost person' or something. These folks even turn on their own family, reminds me of hitler youth, the kids turning in their parents.
Gopher wrote:
Van wrote:
I am not 100% sure I support abortion, or not. I need more heartfelt thoughts on that.
..................
I've always felt this way too.
Shhhh....they'll hear you, Gophie. ;)
true.. but within the protestant community there's this element of catholic church is a cult going on. When I meant that the people in the church have gone mad, they can't take constructive criticism even when its good.
Ahhh....the stuff wars are made of.
Of course 'within the protestant community' etc etc. That's a pretty biased jumping off point to form any conclusions from. Is it not?
well... The Lutheran church I grew up in and the Catholic church made a formal 'peace treaty' back in '00 when we all went to the bisillica downtown and had a dual mass/service. The leaders signed a peace treaty and we've stopped the fighting if you will of the usual crap that's been going on in the U.S. for 150+ years. Getting married to a catholic was forbidden up until a certain time I can't remember, my uncle married a catholic and that was in the 70s and it was still 'taboo'. You got excommunicated if you fooled around with the other "religion".
The other lutheran sect hasn't signed such an accord and still is strongly anti-catholic and will criticize my catholic side of the family at their fathers (my great uncles) funeral. On the flip side, I went to the catholic school and I wasn't called a christian but part of the "Lutheran Religion", which is there way of putting catholicism above the rest.
Jesus is cool. He told me I don't need a man made structure to find him, or some phoney baloney sexual predator to hear my sins.
SD....I understand what you are trying to say. But you're missing one tiny detail. You are smack in the middle of what you would likely deem as ridiculous....and that's pitting one religion against the other.....but you are doing so with only part of the picture.
Some Christian denominations teach that other groups which consider themselves Christian are in fact outside of the faith. Many conservative Protestant groups consider the term "liberal Christian" to be an oxymoron. They consider Mormons, Roman Catholics, United Church members and others to be non-Christian. They are seen as following Pagan, Gnostic, Humanistic beliefs that are divorced from "true Christianity."
Bottom line is, I think it all depends on where your vantage point originates.
Jesus is also pronounced Hay SEUS!
I wonder if he is related to Dr. Seus.
Hmm, we'll have to ask Lil Me or Van who has seen Horton hears a Who.