Got accused of that on another site I frequent by one of its moderators. He said I was anti-american and that I was in some sort of fantasy land. I don't know. I can't help that my biggest hobby is learning about Canada. They never taught us anything in school about Canada not even major events like the referendums. I just don't see the parallels. Yes I kinda have taken things to the extreme but I'm not hurting anyone. But to me its more of a goal. I'm not some old hoagie talking about Canada knowing I'll never get there. I can get there, I've got 60-80 years left. I'm sorry if I'm leaving to the people that call me a traitor. What I see in america is something that cannot be fixed. I've always wanted the U.S. to become more European like in terms of its society but I've come to realisation that, that will never be the case. America is too stuck in the 18th century, needs to wake up. What happend in Quebec during the 1930's and 40's called the "Quiet Revolution" needs to happen here execpt on a larger scale. This country is going down the slippery slope in the wrong direction. Sorry if I want to get off the Titanic known as america.
There's nothing wrong in learning about your neighbour to the North. I'd love to point out guys like you to the ignoramus jerks I meet here who say that Americans know nothing about Canada (and then spout out the most ridiculous generalisations about Americans and the US).
However, you shouldn't overlook the drawbacks as well. One of the biggest ones to living here is that many people will outright hate you just for being American. It has happened to me a number of times. Not being from the South (the Southern accent being confused by a lot of the above-mentioned dummies with the typical American accent) I can usually "pass" pretty easily if I want to. But then I have had perfectly harmonious professional and personal relationships go South (no pun intended) as soon as the other person finds out that I'm American. Yeah, it's so obvious that Americans are bad people that you figured that out about me right away—but after months of getting along with me you now decide that I'm a jerk just because of where I was born. Whatever.
I'm not saying Canadians are narrow-minded in general—but I've certainly met a good number who are. I include a lot of well-educated professionals in that group. I got so sick of it with one woman who considered herself a good friend but never failed to get in the obligatory dig about my origins that I stopped associating with her—just as I did with one who said she was bent on "Canadianising" me (whatever that means), but in reality was using my lack of confidence in a new country and defensiveness about being an American to her advantage (this was a work supervisor) to get me to do way more than should have been expected of me (and more than was expected of everyone else in my position), in an unnecessarily highly-pressured environment. I've also had to deal with bullying and sexual harrassment at work and amongst my neighbours—this is primarily from white, native-born Canadians. Add serious cultural and political resentments from a lot of the Southeast Asian immigrants in my neighbourhood (there's a reason why they came here instead of the US), and it gets old really fast.
At the same time, I caution you against blinding yourself to some of the great things about the US. It's an easy trap to fall into just because of the many detrimental things you see in the media and around you. For me, it has been a blessing to have two PBS stations (Seattle and Detroit) to choose from here so that I can get a regular reminder of the good things about the US: especially culturally and historically. It's good, too, to remember that, just as so much of what's good about the US has its downsides, so do a lot of the things you admire in Canada. Canada's treatment of its Native population through history is no more admirable than ours; and here on the West Coast Japanese Canadians were interned during WWII just as they were in the States. Racism exists here just as it does in the States—it just takes a very different guise, and is harder for those used to American-style racism to recognise.
I think it's great that you're interested in another culture and want to live outside the US. It has long been a goal of mine. I was so disappointed after I got married that my husband wanted to remain in the US instead of return to Europe, as I had been desperate to leave the country permanently since quite literally before you were born. When I left the US in the shadow of the build-up for the Iraq war, I felt very fortunate. Having some income sources in the US, however, I get to pay taxes to the very government I'm trying to get away from. Knowing that my money is going to repress the people I left behind is not a happy thought. Plus, my friends in the US have all but branded me a coward for "running away".
Sorry to go on, but I have a feeling that I know what motivates your interest in emigrating, and if there's anything I can provide for you it's a walking advertisement of how that dream can go tremendously wrong. If you make it past potential draft age without leaving the US and still want to go elsewhere, why restrict your options to Canada? There's another country to the South, too, and plenty of other places throughout the world—some of which could provide a better potential "fit" than an increasingly restrictive and xenophobic (at least as regards the US) Canada.
I don't think its about politics, for me. If it was this urge to move would have left along time ago. And yes I've looked at other countries I like Europe for example. When I finally get to college I want to go study overseas in Norway. I've got this disease (as I call it) to want to be an immigrant for some reason (Its has got to do with what my grandparents went through I believe). I've become complacent down here and spoiled. (Even though I'm from a middle class family that barely survives). It has some to do with politics but as I said that would have worn off a long time ago.
The only time in my life that I was ever doing good in life was when I was being made fun of. And I see what your talking about but then I don't see it. And when I don't see what you're talking about is when I look at the last two gov. generals. One was from Haiti and the other from Hong Kong. They were not born in Canada they came to it and made it there own. This is something you cannot do in america. Which is why you don't see immigrants getting into politics here. Its always there kids american born that do go into it if they want to. This whole American Dream crap that stuffed down our throats in school is a joke when an immigrant can't access the 'americans born only' club.
I like open spaces and the vastness of Canada. I need a place I can get 'lost' in. (not literally). I've taken life as one big giant test so to speak. That might not be the best thing for me mentally but its how I run my life.
No, I guess you don't see what I'm talking about when you equate abusive behaviour, harrassment and anonymous threats with teasing or being made fun of. It's not very fun when you're a female who lives alone with no real local ties, and what little family that's left in another country when you're afraid to go out to your car after work, or are confronted with vandalism to your house from those bent on forcing you to move out.
The people in Canadian politics are no more representative of the population than they are in the US. The Governor-general position is appointed. By that "token", you could look at the appointment of Powell and Rice as Secretary of State as an indication of how well blacks are doing in the US in general. In the case of the latter, at least Secretary of State is a real job, whereas the Governor-general is purely ceremonial.
I think the hypocrisy that really gets me about Canada is their conceit that this is a great country for immigrants. Well, maybe 20 years ago that was the case, but from what I see it isn't now. There's a reason why you see so many professionals from places like South Asia and the Middle East in the US, but comparatively few here. They are "welcome" as immigrants but shut out of their professions by restrictive professional boards and racist employers who use the pretext of "Canadian job experience" to deny jobs to immigrants. I have been offered jobs by people who didn't know I was American and weren't aware of my relative lack of Canadian experience, even though I'm sure I was less qualified than fellow enquirers who didn't share my colour and non-accented English.
If you consider American politics to be an "American-born only club", then what, as a potential emigrant, would you prefer, being shut out of politics or out of the economy in general?
scratches head in bewilderment. ummm. way to much to read, can some one dumb it all down for me ?
Ujjal Dosanjh
Jim Green
David Miller - mayor of Toronto
Rosalie Abella - Supreme Court Justice
Adrienne Clarkson
Michaëlle Jean
All were immigrants. I don't see an immigrant getting on the U.S. Supreme Court anytime soon. The most successful immigrant in U.S. history is Madeline Albright and she's despised by half the country. (Arnold doesn't count, he was famous before he ever came to the U.S.)
"scratches head in bewilderment. ummm. way to much to read, can some one dumb it all down for me ? "
Sure:
On the one hand, X. On the other hand, Y.
lol. funny . real funny.
goes off in search of some fun. ( take that to mean i am very very bored )
GREAT THREAD!!!!
I remember how naive I was about Canada when I first stumbled into Discover Vancouver. I saw Canada as a shining city on a hill. A utoptian society where I could finally be free of American stupidity. In all honesty, I'm still pretty naive about it, but I did learn a couple of things. Most importantly, I learned that what I most wanted to escape isn't American stupidity, but human stupidity. And Canada is full of truly stupid human beings, just like the states.
Idiocy, egotism, ignorance and bigotry of all flavors abound in Canada, and that realization brought on several weeks of dark depression, as I had to let go of my dream.
After I snapped out of it, I realized that Canada still has some advantages. Despite their (as Dissident already mentioned) stained history, their foreign policy is much less offensive than that of the U.S. Whether this is due to an inherently less interventionalist perspective, or to the fact that the Canadian economy and military is feeble...well, I think it's probably a combination of the two.
Or the fact that the US shook off its Colonial status by armed Revolution; the Canadians (sort of) nearly 100 years later, by negotiation and appeasement. Who still has a monarch on their currency?
[span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"]Who still has a monarch on their currency?[/span]
Yes well, I hear we plan to introduce a new $1,000 bill with Goerge Bush's head on it.
Close enough ;)
EDIT: I was lying about the $1,000 bill. On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me.
Dissident wrote:
Or the fact that the US shook off its Colonial status by armed Revolution; the Canadians (sort of) nearly 100 years later, by negotiation and appeasement. Who still has a monarch on their currency?
AUSTRALIA. Long live the Queen!!!!!
The monarch is just a figure head. We all listen to the governor general's comments and so forth but there's really no power. To be honest, I think I rather have the monarch face on our dollar notes than say.... oh, the current prime minister. Come to think of it, maybe we should just stamp tenkani's face all over our bills and be done with it. (//vny!://discoverseattle.net/forums/richedit/smileys/2.gif)
And SD, don't worry about what others think about your view. You're entitled to think whatever the hell you want. We need more ppl like you in Canada.
LOL! I agree with Lise. Sorry if my post sounded harsh, SD. I was just very dissapointed after learning that Canadians are not all that different from Americans. They just have a slightly less disgusting system of government, better health care (although some would say this is debatable) and tend to make fewer enemies around the world.
They aren't the bastion of liberalism I had expected. They can't even make up their minds about marijuana decriminalization for shits sake. A country that throws people in prison for growing a relatively harmless plant is not exactly what I would call evolved.
tek-san - if you're basing your view on what Canadians are like after DV, you're sorely mistaken. Most of the weirdoes on board don't represent what the majority of Canadians are. Most DVers come from.........[FONT size=1] the states. oops. (//vny!://discoverseattle.net/forums/richedit/smileys/Shocked/5.gif) [/FONT]
Too late, Lise!
I'm not just basing my opinions only on DV.
I read news stories and whatnot about your great nation, and see evidence constantly that it is far from free of ignorance, bigotry and nationalist fervor.
But as far as DV goes, although I have met a number of wonderful people there (yourself among them) I have also bumped heads with countless Canadians whose world views are at least as warped and depraved as folks I have chatted with on American bases. People are people and Canadians (although many of them would like to believe otherwise) are just as gullible and self-deluded as Americans in many cases (and not nearly as polite as their reputations would suggest).
Don't get me wrong, overall I think I'd rather be living in Canada, but the difference is not nearly as great as I had expected. And probably not enough for me to ever go through the hassle of immigration.
You're probably right there, tenkani-san but I'm not saying that most Canadians are like that. Maybe I'm naive (ok, I admit to that) but I'm always a great believer of this nation and her ppl. I think we're better off than most countries (yes, call me a patriot) but Canada is a country that's worth fighting for. Her ideals and policies may not perfect but they're better than most places. (I want to say the states - meep)
I think the majority of Canadians are tolerant and friendly. At least the most Canadians I met are generally that way. I feel that BC ppl are by far, the most relaxed, most understandable - then again, that's just my opinion.
[FONT size=1][FONT color=#ff0000]Sometimes I think Lise lives in a bubble dome where violence and bad things don't happen......[/FONT]
[/FONT]
I'm in a rather black mood right now, so forgive me if I've offended you.
On the other hand, I don't know that we can just dismiss everything that's said on DV as coming from cranks and yanks.
The first time I heard someone on DV make a racist comment I was FLOORED. That should tell you how naive I was. Meh. Time to go...
(//vny!://www.motleycrow.com/ImageHost/Beammeup.gif)
I love being Canadian. What I don't like is our apathy. I wish that we were more involved with the world and more interested in what was going on in our own back yards.
Having said that, please don't ask me if I vote.
Yes, I am a hippocryte... er hipo... er .... How do ya spell that?
tenkani wrote:
I'm in a rather black mood right now, so forgive me if I've offended you.
On the other hand, I don't know that we can just dismiss everything that's said on DV as coming from cranks and yanks.
The first time I heard someone on DV make a racist comment I was FLOORED. That should tell you how naive I was. Meh. Time to go...
(//vny!://www.motleycrow.com/ImageHost/Beammeup.gif)
Ah hell, tenkani - you can NEVER offend me so pls don't hold back, bro.
There is wayyyy to much racism on DV. Nothing fazzles me anymore.
I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to steal "fazzles" from you.
I promise to pay 5 cents (American) every time I use it though!!!
One thing I like about Canada is its ideals.
One thing I don't like about Canada is that it seems to be a reflection of me: They say the good things, think up the good things but they don't act on it. I've been reading a lot of history lately and Canada whenever its had to evolve into something greater had to do so kicking and screaming.
Another thing I don't like is that they don't stand up for themselves on an international stage as much as they should and they come off as timid.
They can't stand being made fun of but they can make fun of other nations. (Remember the insult dog and Conan O'Brien, whenever some looney right winger makes a comment on Canada i.e. Tucker Carlson calling Canada 'retarded cousin' it makes front page news.)
But those can be shed like anything else. For example I wish more people were watching the stanley cup playoffs when the games are in edmonton. The crowd sings both national anthems without the jumbo tron help. NBC caught on to this and showed the national anthems on TV when most american sports networks never show the anthems before the game. The american announcers called it the greatest thing they have ever seen.
Overall I still like Canada, still want to move there but I've come down to earth on my expectations. Nothing is Utopian. If I get to where I want to go in life (which I know I can do it) I have some great ideas.
Never give up hope, SD.
You're a good guy and I'm sure you're going to make whatever country you end up in a better place.
Don't mind this jaded old nihilist ;)
I see the young getting involved in politics up north and wanting to make the place a better world, while down here its the polar opposite.
Mmmm, nationwide you may be right.
Here in California we have a fair share of idealistic, activist youth. I live a short drive from Santa Cruz, which is a hotbed of such activity. But I know that Santa Cruz does not represent the rest of the country in any way, shape or form. Berkeley is another bastion of progressive thought, but again, Berkeley is seen by "the mainstream" as being more of a bastion of elitism and enviro-loonies.
The neo-cons were very effective in turning liberalism into a dirty word and convincing the American public that conservative power-brokers and politicians are "one of ya'll".
Yep. Being a liberal now has a totally differnt meaing. Now people are starting to use the word progressive instead.
Well over here more kids are going into the neo-con social conservative movement. Even though they are not practising what they preach because I've seen them at parties and they sure aren't conservative then....
For SD and anyone else who takes exception to my responses in this thread, I want to make clear that I'm not here to diss Canada. But, like tenkani, I think it's important to point out to the many starry-eyed Americans who are looking for an escape from what's terrible in the US that Canada is not the promised land.
Additionally, if my posts indicated anything, one of the worst things about living here is becoming a lightning rod for Canadian anti-Americanism, no matter how subtle people believe their expression of it is. It doesn't matter if you're opposed to the Bush government, there are people here who are looking for someone who is safe to dump on, and if you come up here you have to be prepared for that.
As a female, I've had to deal with that sort of behaviour from men all my life, and I have to admit that, as a middle-class Caucasian, I have been hard-pressed to sort out whether some of the grief and harrassment I've dealt with here has been due to my gender or my nationality. That said, I've seen a lot more regressive attitudes towards women here than I'm used to—certainly more than I expected. One of the things I've noticed is that those who express overtly homophobic sentiments—and the tolerance for that here is also something I'm not used to—are also more likely to harbour not particularly admirable attitudes towards women.
Compared to where you are in the Midwest, that may not sound so bad, SD, but I've never encountered this kind of attitude even on an Army base in the Deep South, so I'm going to go out on a limb and postulate that, despite the laws, there are much more acceptably delineated double standards applied to anyone who isn't an Anglo-Saxon heterosexual male here than there are in the US (much like in Europe). Whether that's a reflection of a willingness to bring one's racism and sexism in the open instead of mouthing the right words and hiding behind self-satisfied bromides I don't know. But I do think that it is significant that there has never been any form of Affirmative Action or Title IX type of legislation here—and it shows.
I've known young guys like you who have come up here and—being male and Caucasian—have gained much more acceptance than I, but who have confided to me how sick they are of the almost obligatory crap they have to put up with on a daily basis about their nationality, even from people who flatter themselves with the designation of "friend". With "friends" like that . . .
I wouldn't have to worry about the nationality thing because A) I'll probly burn my american citzenship which means B) I probly won't be dual.
And it wouldn't bother me because I've been called anti-american down here so do in rome as the romans do...[/DIV]
This is one of the most interesting threads on the board - thanks to everyone who made it so.
Sportsdude wrote:
[div]I wouldn't have to worry about the nationality thing because A) I'll probly burn my american citzenship which means B) I probly won't be dual.
And it wouldn't bother me because I've been called anti-american down here so do in rome as the romans do...[/div]
Forgive me if I address you in a more "American" manner and if I'm perfectly blunt. This, after all, is an American-based forum . . .
Dude, you just don't get it. You could go around here with a big sign saying, "I Hate George Bush and the USA" on a maple leaf background or one of those silly "I am Canadian" beer shirts and people will still take the opportunity to dump on you because you were BORN American.
Your sentiments and your "paper status" are immaterial. As in the US, there are a lot of ignorant jerks here who love to find a target for their frustrations—and there is no political incorrectness in harrassing and discriminating against Americans. These people could give a rat's ass how you feel about the US, whether you hold Canadian citizenship or how much you love Canada. Yahoos like this blame us for everything from the lack of jobs in their field to astronomical housing costs to street crime to why it hasn't stopped raining in three weeks.
It doesn't matter if you don't customarily mention where you're from: once they find out, some of these bastards will make it their business to let everyone in your "shared milieu"—be it your neighbourhood, workplace or whatever—know, so that even before anyone has had a chance to get to know you and make up their mind about you, one of the first things you will hear upon meeting them is, "oh, you must be the American". From then on, you're always the outsider—and you'll hear about it whenever the US does something that people don't like, whether you are in agreement or not.
Believe me, I tried to slip in under the radar and just make a life for myself here. I was stupid enough to think it was possible. Before I even moved here I had people (usually women, so I assume it wasn't a pickup line) come up to me in the street or in shops and ask me if I had gone to high school with them, I looked familiar, was I from (White Rock, Port Alberni, New West, Ontario, wherever), so I figured that at least I didn't visually stick out (plus there was the very real possibility that they may have been referring to a distant relation). Even now, as long as I'm in an anonymous situation I stand a chance, but once they find out I'm American it's a crap shoot.
So if you're asking if you're using Canada as a form of escapism, I have to answer: yes, you are. As I did.
If you don't act on the dream of escaping the US and reinventing yourself here amongst people who are "just like you", Canada will always be the shining city on the hill. If that's what you want, great. Just bear in mind that your fantasy bears about as much resemblance to reality as teenaged dreams of nailing your favourite pinup girl.
As I said, SD—not to be rude, just honest.
But they act the same way down here when I get into political arguements. So I don't see the point. In Saint Louis everyone asks you where you went to high school. I never finished at a local high school and was home schooled. If your from the west coast or east coast you are looked down on for being snotty. If you have a differnt colour on your skin you are attacked in the schools and questioned why are you here. I have witnessed all of this in Missouri where if you don't have social conservative tendencies and aren't raw raw america you are a traitor. So if Vancouver is like that (which I know it is in the college campuses because I read things) fine. But I've also learned that its a Vancouver thing and that places back east aren't hung up. But if I get fried for happening to be born in the U.S. I could careless. Because down here I've always lived my life like I was a lamb among wolves and so I Vancouver treats me like that, so what I don't care I'm use to it, even though I'm on there side. As Pierre Trudeau said: "Just Watch Me".
Sportsdude wrote:
I don't think its about politics, for me. If it was this urge to move would have left along time ago. And yes I've looked at other countries I like Europe for example. When I finally get to college I want to go study overseas in Norway. I've got this disease (as I call it) to want to be an immigrant for some reason (Its has got to do with what my grandparents went through I believe). I've become complacent down here and spoiled. (Even though I'm from a middle class family that barely survives). It has some to do with politics but as I said that would have worn off a long time ago.
The only time in my life that I was ever doing good in life was when I was being made fun of. And I see what your talking about but then I don't see it. And when I don't see what you're talking about is when I look at the last two gov. generals. One was from Haiti and the other from Hong Kong. They were not born in Canada they came to it and made it there own. This is something you cannot do in america. Which is why you don't see immigrants getting into politics here. Its always there kids american born that do go into it if they want to. This whole American Dream crap that stuffed down our throats in school is a joke when an immigrant can't access the 'americans born only' club.
I like open spaces and the vastness of Canada. I need a place I can get 'lost' in. (not literally). I've taken life as one big giant test so to speak. That might not be the best thing for me mentally but its how I run my life.
lol open space? have u been to vancouver? tried to make a left turn on kingsway?
Dissident wrote:
Sportsdude wrote:
I wouldn't have to worry about the nationality thing because A) I'll probly burn my american citzenship which means B) I probly won't be dual.
And it wouldn't bother me because I've been called anti-american down here so do in rome as the romans do...[/DIV][/DIV]
Forgive me if I address you in a more "American" manner and if I'm perfectly blunt. This, after all, is an American-based forum . . .
Dude, you just don't get it. You could go around here with a big sign saying, "I Hate George Bush and the USA" on a maple leaf background or one of those silly "I am Canadian" beer shirts and people will still take the opportunity to dump on you because you were BORN American.
Your sentiments and your "paper status" are immaterial. As in the US, there are a lot of ignorant jerks here who love to find a target for their frustrations—and there is no political incorrectness in harrassing and discriminating against Americans. These people could give a rat's ass how you feel about the US, whether you hold Canadian citizenship or how much you love Canada. Yahoos like this blame us for everything from the lack of jobs in their field to astronomical housing costs to street crime to why it hasn't stopped raining in three weeks.
It doesn't matter if you don't customarily mention where you're from: once they find out, some of these bastards will make it their business to let everyone in your "shared milieu"—be it your neighbourhood, workplace or whatever—know, so that even before anyone has had a chance to get to know you and make up their mind about you, one of the first things you will hear upon meeting them is, "oh, you must be the American". From then on, you're always the outsider—and you'll hear about it whenever the US does something that people don't like, whether you are in agreement or not.
Believe me, I tried to slip in under the radar and just make a life for myself here. I was stupid enough to think it was possible. Before I even moved here I had people (usually women, so I assume it wasn't a pickup line) come up to me in the street or in shops and ask me if I had gone to high school with them, I looked familiar, was I from (White Rock, Port Alberni, New West, Ontario, wherever), so I figured that at least I didn't [SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"]visually[/SPAN] stick out (plus there was the very real possibility that they may have been referring to a distant relation). Even now, as long as I'm in an anonymous situation I stand a chance, but once they find out I'm American it's a crap shoot.
So if you're asking if you're using Canada as a form of escapism, I have to answer: yes, you are. As I did.
If you don't act on the dream of escaping the US and reinventing yourself here amongst people who are "just like you", Canada will always be the shining city on the hill. If that's what you want, great. Just bear in mind that your fantasy bears about as much resemblance to reality as teenaged dreams of nailing your favourite pinup girl.
As I said, SD—not to be rude, just honest.
Hate to say it Dissadent. This isn't a "Canadian" thing. There are not too many countries, territories, or anywhere in the world an American could move to, or even visit where they wouldn't be anti-American sediment. The USA has done it to themselves. Sorry, this is planet earth. There are some great American people, too bad it has to be this way. You can thank the American's thirst for oil control for that.
lol open space? have u been to vancouver? tried to make a left turn on kingsway?[/DIV]
yeah, the cities are bad. Have you been outside of Vancouver? Vancouver is a small little speck of Canada. There is more open space than most of Eaurope, with the population of one mega city spread through it all.
I guess I just don't see where this 'anti-Americanism' is coming from. I've yet to come across ANYONE, (in my circle of friends anyway) who is anti-American. Aside from the crap on DV....I'm more likely to believe that it comes from people who don't like ANYTHING.
When someone is sorting through the reasons they may be experiencing difficulties, I think easier to swallow, to believe those difficulties stem from ones nationality rather than look at possiblities that the problem may be within ones' self. Naive ???? Maybe......but for the average person, that's usually the last place we look. I know that's a simplistic way of looking at things, but it holds true for the most part.....be it relationships with your own partner, friends, family co-workers etc.
I think if we spent as much time 'fixing' ourselves as we did trying to fix everyone else, it would at the very least be an overall improvement.
I agree with PC. I don't often hear anything anti-American to individuals. Perhaps because in my line of work I work with Americans all day long and wouldn't tolerate it, but even people that don't know that of me never say anything negative.
On the flip side, there certainly are Canadians that shake their heads at some of the policies/propaganda of the American government and the fact that they were ever voted in in the first place, but that is about as far as I ever see it go.
I would have to agree. I've never come across any anti-American sentiment, at least not against individuals. The government is another story, but as individual citizens I've always seen them accepted.
Yes, that's pretty much it, anti-Americanism is usually directed at the nation, not its component parts.
P.C. wrote:
When someone is sorting through the reasons they may be experiencing difficulties, I think easier to swallow, to believe those difficulties stem from ones nationality rather than look at possiblities that the problem may be within ones' self.
I see where you're going there, but believe me I've already gone through a couple of years of blaming and trying to "fix" myself. I've tied myself up in knots trying to deal with this whole business—so I didn't come to my conclusions in the kind of facile, irresponsible manner you seem to suggest.
It was having a job where I was dealing with a lot of college students a few years back where I started running into Americans who were having a lot of the same problems I was. These were mostly young, easygoing kids who were from all over the US and from all different types of backgrounds. The complaints I used to hear from them sounded so much like the things I had kept to myself for so long it was uncanny.
Though I knew other foreign students who had some simliar difficulties, there seemed to be things that the American students had problems with that other foreign students never encountered. I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that we pretty much look and sound like Canadians, so they don't hold back about their true feelings if they don't know where we're from right away.
After all, college students are worried about finding jobs after school, and I met a lot of Canadian kids who blame a lot of their job insecurity on US "encroachment" into the Canadian economy. Similarly, living in what I have to designate without prejudice is a predominantly "working class" neighbourhood I've known a number of people who have been involved in strikes and union actions over the years, and many of them like to hold trade issues with the US responsible for their difficulties.
My brother lived in Ontario for a few years in the early 90s, and he relates similar experiences—though not as frequent and intense as mine, as tensions between the two countries weren't as bad as they are now (or maybe Ontarians express them differently). He visited me last year and was really floored by how much nastier people were here in Vancouver than in Toronto (where he goes regularly for business purposes)—at least from his perspective.
One of the nice things about some of the freelancing I'm doing now is that I get to meet and work with lots of different people on an ongoing basis. The other day I went into a new gig and was really enjoying the group I was working with until we hit a situation that I was able to help with because it involved communicating with someone I used to know in the US, and that's when my origins became known.
I'll give these people credit because they were nice about it, and it didn't matter to them. But I have to admit that I could have done without the rest of our conversation during the day being dominated by Bush, the Iraq war, how ignorant Americans are about Canada, etc, etc. I don't think people realise how sick to death I am of this.
I've tried to explain to some of my friends here how it literally hurts to watch your country being destroyed the way mine is, and to be powerless to do anything about it—it's one of the main reasons why I came here in the first place. I've gotten to the point where I try to stay as busy as possible during the weeks approaching Independence Day, and to ignore American media as much as I can—as it saddens and depresses me probably beyond your imagination to contemplate what my ancestors fought for and what has become of it since. I still love my country, just not my government, and I'm forced to suffer in silence because to try to express this to the people around me is to open myself up to a lot of abuse.
My responses in this thread were meant to attempt to let a very impressionable individual know that acting upon this particular fantasy was likely to lead to great disappointment—as I have yet to meet an American who emigrated anytime in the past 15 years who hasn't had experiences that were eerily similar to mine. That's all.
I certainly wasn't directing my comments at anyone specific. Just a general observation of of human nature. (myself included)
It isn't even in my relm of thinking to hold an individual 'responsible' for their countrys' politics. I have many friends who are American, and they are friends because they are good people. Nothing more, nothing less. I also have 'friends', who are Canadian, who think all their problems stem from our government....when in fact many of their problems are directly related to how they choose to live in this world.
You're clearly intelligent and well educated, Dissident, and I can't help but wonder if a certain amount of people would be intimidated by that alone. I'm no scholar, but I've always taken people on face value....I don't care what their ancestors may have done or what politics their country of origin has. I know I often have an overly simplistic way of looking at things sometimes, but it works for me.
Many years ago, my sister and her husband went on the vacation of HIS dreams. They travelled Europe. To make a long story short.....my sister complained about everything. The people in France were this, the people in Italy were that......etc. etc. etc. At the same time, my husband (who wasn't my husband at the time) had also taken almost the same 'tour', came back with the most opposite opinion. The people in Italy were SO friendly and helpful, the people in France were most gracious.....etc. We actually met as a result of my butting into a conversation to hear about his experience. It was his outlook alone that drew me to him. It occurred to me that his positive experience was a result of HIS positive nature. (and of course my sisters negative experience was a result of hers )
My comments earlier were to include the people who found it neccesary to dump their woes on your shoulders.....and yet your first reaction was to feel it was personal.