1 in 136 U.S. Residents Behind Bars [DIV id=ynmain] [DIV id=storybody] [DIV class=spacer]
Prisons and jails added more than 1,000 inmates each week for a year, putting almost 2.2 million people, or one in every 136 U.S. residents, behind bars by last summer.
The total on June 30, 2005, was 56,428 more than at the same time in 2004, the government reported Sunday. That 2.6 percent increase from mid-2004 to mid-2005 translates into a weekly rise of 1,085 inmates.
Of particular note was the gain of 33,539 inmates in jails, the largest increase since 1997, researcher Allen J. Beck said. That was a 4.7 percent growth rate, compared with a 1.6 percent increase in people held in state and federal prisons.
Prisons accounted for about two-thirds of all inmates, or 1.4 million, while the other third, nearly 750,000, were in local jails, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics.
Beck, the bureau's chief of corrections statistics, said the increase in the number of people in the 3,365 local jails is due partly to their changing role. Jails often hold inmates for state or federal systems, as well as people who have yet to begin serving a sentence.
"The jail population is increasingly unconvicted," Beck said. "Judges are perhaps more reluctant to release people pretrial."
The report by the Justice Department agency found that 62 percent of people in jails have not been convicted, meaning many of them are awaiting trial.
Overall, 738 people were locked up for every 100,000 residents, compared with a rate of 725 at mid-2004. The states with the highest rates were Louisiana and Georgia, with more than 1 percent of their populations in prison or jail. Rounding out the top five were Texas, Mississippi and Oklahoma.
The states with the lowest rates were Maine, Minnesota, Rhode Island, Vermont and New Hampshire.
Men were 10 times to 11 times more likely than women to be in prison or jail, but the number of women behind bars was growing at a faster rate, said Paige M. Harrison, the report's other author.
The racial makeup of inmates changed little in recent years, Beck said. In the 25-29 age group, an estimated 11.9 percent of black men were in prison or jails, compared with 3.9 percent of Hispanic males and 1.7 percent of white males.
Marc Mauer, executive director of The Sentencing Project, which supports alternatives to prison, said the incarceration rates for blacks were troubling.
"It's not a sign of a healthy community when we've come to use incarceration at such rates," he said.
Mauer also criticized sentencing guidelines, which he said remove judges' discretion, and said arrests for drug and parole violations swell prisons.
"If we want to see the prison population reduced, we need a much more comprehensive approach to sentencing and drug policy," he said.
[/DIV][/DIV]
Proves once again DO NOT COPY AMERICA when it comes to Criminal Reform and Prison Reform. We have almost as many people in jail as Canada has people.
"The racial makeup of inmates changed little in recent years, Beck said. In the 25-29 age group, an estimated 11.9 percent of black men were in prison or jails, compared with 3.9 percent of Hispanic males and 1.7 percent of white males."
Wow, totally not shocked.
Crickey. Did not know that. Is the crime rate in the US also higher?
Lise wrote:
Crickey. Did not know that. Is the crime rate in the US also higher?[/DIV]
Lets see remember the Toronto shootings and how it was a crime wave with 78 or something murders. Well if they ever got that low in St. Louis they would start naming roads after the mayor and police chief. And St. Louis is medium size town.
Chicago had like 400 murders last year.
Crime is high. Guns are easy to find. Also a lot of people get jailed for 10 years just for a simple marijuana search.
St. Louis fixed there rapes last year so it didn't seem bad. Instead of 500+ that was reported it was really like 1,200 rapes.
Car thefts are really bad. Gang leaders realize that when kids turn 18 the records are erased so they teach kids how to steal cars as early as 8 years old. A 10 year old stole a car in North St. Louis a couple of years ago went on a chase ran over a couple of people and died. Causing the city to start a no chase policy.
And St. Louis recently was in the news for the rape of 6 year old girl by 8 of her class mates who ranged in age from 6 to 10. YES A SIX YEAR OLD!!
My goodness. Reading all these crimes make me depressed. I don't understand why a country that's rich in resource and is consider the world leader can have crime rates that would shock most countries.....? Are all the youths so violent there?
Tehborken will get mad at me but it starts with the second Admendment truthfully. For example you can by machine guns at a gun show and not have to go through a security check. We have no checks on guns or even bullets. NRA stopped legislation passing that would ban bullet proof vest piercing bullets. Watch the movie City of God. Where headed in that direction in the cities.
Tehborken will get mad at me but it starts with the second Admendment truthfully.
Forgive me but what is the second admendment?
For example you can by machine guns at a gun show and not have to go through a security check. We have no checks on guns or even bullets. NRA stopped legislation passing that would ban bullet proof vest piercing bullets. Watch the movie City of God. Where headed in that direction in the cities.
That's insane. No checking??!?!? What are police officers left with then? Pepper spray? To be honest, except for Hawaii, I have never felt completely safe in the US (as a tourist) as say, when I'm here in BC. There was a kind of tension in the air (can't explain it) when I visited Florida. [/DIV]
According to a Crime watch organization Chicago has had
160 first degree homicides already
5 involuntary manslaughters
4 Justifiable Homicides
2 Reckless Homicides
1 Second Degree Homicide
1,083 Aggravated Assualts with a Handgun
638 Aggravated Assualts with (hands, feet, etc.)
- with 514 of those coming at a school of some kind
30 Sexual Assualts without a weapon (Predatory)
36 Sexual Assualts with a hand gun
29 Sexual Assualts with a knife or cutting instrument
Could go on the lists are long the website is [A href="vny!://www.chicagocrime.org/"]vny!://www.chicagocrime.org/[/A]
Florida is the worst. They have this Stand your ground law where if you are armed and you fell threatened you can shoot to kill the person without being charged. I hate florida. Its the land of the haves and have nots. You go down one street and its all glitzy and people are driving bmw's and what not and the next street over people are living in poverty.
[H4 class=nav][A name=amendmentii]Amendment II[/A][/H4] A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
Whoa. That's a long list there, SD.
The segregation is so prominent in Florida. I have never seen that before. And yes, it has to do with the rich and the poor. I have never seen so many gated communities. Such a concept is alien to me.
A well run militia??? My goodness. Who writes these things??
Yeah yeah want to see poor here's St. Louis' North Side
[A href="vny!://www.builtstlouis.net/"]vny!://www.builtstlouis.net/[/A]
That website make me feel proud! (Sarcasm)
Interesting link there. Anyways, thanks for the chitchat, SD. Certainly an eye-opener.
Gotta run. Take care and ttyl.
Sportsdude wrote:
For example you can by machine guns at a gun show and not have to go through a security check.
This is absolutely false, SD, and I don't where in the world you heard this. That is simply 100% wrong, no two ways about it. Machine guns require a Class 3 permit just to possess, and they require a Federal Firearms License to transfer or sell. You *cannot* go to a gun show and by a machine gun with no license or background check, not legally. Period, no exceptions.
We have no checks on guns or even bullets.
Again, this is false. You cannot buy a handgun without a waiting period and background check. I know, I've bought more than one. Rifles do not require a background check, but then neither do knives, axes, chainsaws, hammers, or cars.
NRA stopped legislation passing that would ban bullet proof vest piercing bullets.
This is a simplistic, not-even-true version of what happened. I won't waste my breath trying to dispute it because your mind is pretty clearly made up, and nothing I say will make any difference....you won't be persuaded by mere proof.
Lise wrote: [div style="font-style: italic;"]A well run militia??? My goodness. Who writes these things??[/div]
No one important. Just a bunch of terrorist kooks like [a href="vny!://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/gw1.html"]George Washington[/a], [a href="vny!://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/tj3.html"]Thomas Jefferson[/a], [a href="vny!://fi.edu/franklin/"]Ben Franklin[/a], [a href="vny!://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/jm4.html"]James Madison[/a], etc. Thank heavens no one ever took any of their nutty ideas seriously, or who knows where we'd be today.
Sorry if I am "Anti Gun". Its just that I've grown up around guns (my cousins are farmers) and I've also seen there destruction on human lives (my church was shot up, one of my high school football games a guy pulled a gun on one of our players, I've had friends grandmothers and mothers killed, a kid brought a gun to school, I've seen gang members shooting in the streets, murders at malls, a guy shooting at cars from a bluff near a huge mall in my area). I've seen the wrath of hand guns and assualt weapons and the affect they have had on my community. I'm not worried about people hunting, I have no problem with that. Its guns on the street, more powerful guns then what the cops have that worry me. And I don't know Washington State laws but in Missouri you can just buy just about anything at a gun show.
Here's the proof:
ANTI-TRAFFICKING
Is there a one-handgun-per-month limit on gun sales? [FONT color=red]No[/FONT]
No state restrictions on gun-trafficking such as a limit on the number of handguns that can be purchased at one time. Gun traffickers can easily buy large quantities of handguns at gun stores and resell them on the street to criminals.
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[A name=aw][/A] ASSAULT WEAPONS
Are there limitations on assault weapons and magazines? [FONT color=red]No[/FONT]
No state restriction on the sale or possession of military-style semiautomatic assault weapons like the AK47 and Uzi. Assault weapons are as easy to buy as hunting rifles. No restriction on the sale or possession of rapid-fire ammunition magazines that can fire up to 100 bullets without reloading. Federal law does prevent the sale of some assault weapons and rapid-fire magazines manufactured after 1994, but the federal law will sunset in 2004 unless Congress and President Bush renew it.
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[A name=ag][/A] ATTORNEY GENERAL REGULATIONS
May Attorney General regulate guns? [FONT color=green]Yes[/FONT]
Missouri: State law grants the Attorney General independent authority to regulate firearms, as part of the AG?s responsibility to protect consumers, but the Attorney General has not used this authority to establish gun safety standards.
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[A name=bgnd][/A] BACKGROUND CHECK AT STATE LEVEL
Do state police perform a background check in addition to federal NICS check? [FONT color=#ff9900]Partial[/FONT]
Missouri: State law requires handgun buyers to go through a state-based criminal background check to get a permit in addition to the federal NICS check at the time of actual purchase. But buyers of long guns (rifles, shotguns and many assault weapons)only go through the more limited federal check. This could create a serious problem since in many states the federal records are not as complete or up-to-date as state records. Failure to check state records may allow prohibited gun buyers, like those under recently-issued restraining orders or those with mental illness, to improperly buy guns. Also see: Licensing and Waiting Period.
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[A name=ballistic][/A] BALLISTIC FINGERPRINTING
Must handguns be ballistic fingerprinted prior to sale? [FONT color=red]No[/FONT]
No state requirement that gun dealers or manufacturers provide police with sample bullets/cartridges or digital images of bullets/cartridges prior to the sale of a handgun, ?ballistic fingerprinting,? which would assist police in tracing bullets at crime scenes to the guns that fired them.
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[A name=ccw][/A] CCW LIMITS
May police limit carrying concealed handguns? [FONT color=#ff9900]Partial[/FONT]
Missouri - A new state law forces law enforcement to issue permits to carry concealed handguns (CCW) to anyone who can legally buy a gun and has minimal "training," but the law has been blocked pending a decision by the State Supreme Court. The law allows people to carry loaded, hidden handguns in cars and into restaurants, playgrounds, parks, shopping malls, etc. In 2000, Missouri voters rejected a gun lobby ballot initiative for concealed handguns, but the legislature passed it anyway. The law has been challenged as unconstitutional and the appeal is pending in the Missouri Supreme Court. Until resolved, it remains illegal to carry concealed handguns in Missouri. [P align=right][A href="vny!://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/viewstate.php?st=MO#menu"][img height=20 alt="Return to the Menu" src="vny!://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/images/menu.gif" width=105 border=0][/A]
[A name=cap][/A] CHILD ACCESS PREVENTION - CAP
Are gun owners held accountable for leaving guns accessible to kids? [FONT color=red]No[/FONT]
No state requirement that gun owners take responsible steps to prevent children from gaining easy access to their firearms. Gun owners are not held accountable for leaving loaded guns around kids, even if a young child shoots themselves or someone else with a gun left in plain sight.
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[A name=csl][/A] CHILD-SAFETY LOCKS
Must locking devices be sold with guns? [FONT color=red]No[/FONT]
No state requirement that guns be sold with child-safety locks that could prevent a tragic accident. Child-safety locks cost as little as $10 and could save lives if sold with firearms.
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[A name=lawsuit][/A] GUN MANUFACTURER ACCOUNTABILITY
Do cities have authority to hold gun makers legally liable? [FONT color=red]No[/FONT]
Missouri - State law generally prohibits cities or local governments from taking legal action to hold gun manufacturers accountable if they act irresponsibly in the way they design, market or distribute weapons. Gun manufacturers cannot be held legally accountable, unlike the makers of every other product. [P align=right][A href="vny!://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/viewstate.php?st=MO#menu"][img height=20 alt="Return to the Menu" src="vny!://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/images/menu.gif" width=105 border=0][/A]
[A name=gunshows][/A] GUN SHOW CHECKS
Are background checks required at gun shows? [FONT color=#ff9900]Partial[/FONT]
The state requires a criminal background check and 7-day waiting period prior to the purchase of handguns at gun shows (a police-issued permit is required for all handgun sales), just like sales at gun stores. But no background check is required for anyone buying a long gun at a gun show if it is sold by "private" individuals or gun "collectors." Long guns, including assault weapons like the AK47, can be sold at gun shows on a "no questions asked, cash-and-carry" basis, making it easy for criminals and even juveniles to buy as many guns as they want. No records are required to be kept on such sales either, making it almost impossible for police to trace the weapons if they are used in a crime.
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[A name=juvposs][/A] JUVENILE POSSESSION
Are minors restricted from possessing guns? [FONT color=#ff9900]Partial[/FONT]
State law does not directly restrict juveniles from possessing handguns without parental permission or authorized supervision, but no handgun permits are granted to people under 21. There are no restrictions on juveniles possessing rifles or shotguns including semiautomatic assault weapons.
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[A name=juvsale][/A] JUVENILE SALE
Is it illegal to sell guns to kids? [FONT color=green]Yes[/FONT]
State law restricts selling or giving handguns to juveniles under 21, and other firearms to juveniles under 18, except for supervised loans of firearms or for limited lawful activities (such as hunting).
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[A name=license][/A] LICENSE OR PERMIT TO PURCHASE
Is a license/permit required to buy handguns? [FONT color=green]Yes[/FONT]
State law requires handgun buyers to obtain a permit from law enforcement prior to purchasing a handgun. The handgun permit only involves a background check - there is no requirement for safety training or fingerprints. The permit fee is $10.
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[A name=preemption][/A] LOCAL GUN LAWS - PREEMPTION
May cities enact laws stronger than the state's? [FONT color=red]No[/FONT]
State law forbids local city or county governments from enacting any local gun laws, even though the state has failed to pass responsible state-wide laws. This preemption of local government authority makes it impossible for cities to enact sensible gun laws to make their citizens safer.
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[A name=records][/A] RECORD KEEPING
May police maintain gun sale records? [FONT color=#ff9900]Partial[/FONT]
State law authorizes local law enforcement to keep a record of every permit-to-purchase a handgun and the actions taken on those applications. But the state does not keep any records on the sale of rifles or shotguns. The handgun permit records are maintained by police for use in gun tracing and related criminal investigations. But the state does not automatically compare past gun sale records with recent criminal activity to identify and disarm felons and others who bought guns legally, but later committed a crime or otherwise became ineligible to keep possession of their firearms.
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[A name=registrati][/A] REGISTRATION
Are all guns registered with law enforcement? [FONT color=red]No[/FONT]
No state requirement that gun owners register their firearms. Police do not know how many guns are in the state or where they are. The lack of registration data makes it more difficult for police to trace guns used in crime, identify illegal gun traffickers or hold gun owners accountable for their weapons. There is no state system to automatically identify and disarm felons and other prohibited people who bought guns legally in the past, but later committed a crime or otherwise became ineligible to keep possession of their firearms.
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[A name=standards][/A] SAFETY STANDARDS
Are there consumer safety standards on guns? [FONT color=red]No[/FONT]
No state requirement that handguns meet any basic safety standards. No requirement that guns be sold with a child-safety lock or a built-in ?personalized? lock to prevent unauthorized use. No requirement that handguns have loaded-chamber indicators or magazine safety disconnects that could prevent unintentional shootings. The state Attorney General is authorized to independently establish handgun safety standards, but has failed to do so.
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[A name=training][/A] SAFETY TRAINING
Is safety training required for handgun buyers? [FONT color=red]No[/FONT]
No state requirement that handgun buyers receive any safety training at all. No requirement that handgun buyers demonstrate any familiarity with gun laws or knowledge about safe handling/safe storage of handguns.
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[A name=sns][/A] SATURDAY NIGHT SPECIALS
Are there limitations on 'junk' handguns? [FONT color=red]No[/FONT]
No state restriction on the sale of Saturday night specials or "junk" handguns. No requirement that handguns meet any safety tests such as a drop-safety test or a firing-performance test. No restriction on the sale of snub-nosed handguns that are very small and easy to conceal.
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[A name=school][/A] SCHOOL ZONES
Is it illegal for CCW permit holders to carry guns into schools? [FONT color=green]Yes[/FONT]
Missouri - State law restricts carrying firearms on school grounds, except for law enforcement personnel. [P align=right][A href="vny!://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/viewstate.php?st=MO#menu"][img height=20 alt="Return to the Menu" src="vny!://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/images/menu.gif" width=105 border=0][/A]
[A name=secondary][/A] SECONDARY SALES
Are background checks required on 'private' gun sales? [FONT color=#ff9900]Partial[/FONT]
State law requires people buying or otherwise acquiring ownership of a handgun to obtain a purchase permit from local law enforcement, which requires applicants to go through a criminal background check. Permits may take up to 7-days to be issued. A purchase permit and background check are not required for people buying assault weapons, shotguns and rifles from private sellers, including sales at gun shows, swap meets, or through Internet or newspaper advertisements.
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[A name=wait][/A] WAITING PERIOD
Is there a waiting period on gun sales? [FONT color=green]Yes[/FONT]
State law requires handgun buyers to first obtain a permit-to-purchase a handgun. Law enforcement may take up to 7 days to issue the permit, during which time they can do a background check. The permit is valid for 30 days. Also see: License Or Permit to Purchase.
1) You're confusing "semi-automatic" firearms with machineguns. There's a big difference and I suggest you understand it, since nothing you posted above has anything to do with "machineguns" or fully-automatic weapons AT ALL.
2) Show me where it says it's legal to buy a machinegun at a firearms show, as you claimed. I didn't see that in there.
3) Adopting the knee-jerk position that an object (like a gun) is responsible for anything is just plain silly. You might as well blame get-away cars for bank robberies or motorcycle helmets for head injuries.
The state requires a criminal background check and 7-day waiting period prior to the purchase of handguns at gun shows (a police-issued permit is required for all handgun sales), just like sales at gun stores. But no background check is required for anyone buying a long gun at a gun show if it is sold by "private" individuals or gun "collectors." Long guns, including assault weapons like the AK47, can be sold at gun shows on a "no questions asked, cash-and-carry" basis, making it easy for criminals and even juveniles to buy as many guns as they want. No records are required to be kept on such sales either, making it almost impossible for police to trace the weapons if they are used in a crime.
Sportsdude wrote:
But no background check is required for anyone buying a long gun at a gun show if it is sold by "private" individuals or gun "collectors."
[span style="font-weight: normal;"]And this isn't required in a store for rifles (long guns), either, so I what's your point?[/span]
[span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"][/span]
"Long guns, including assault weapons like the AK47, can be sold at gun shows on a "no questions asked, cash-and-carry" basis, making it easy for criminals and even juveniles to buy as many guns as they want."
This is simply not true, and you should research your facts a little better. To legally buy ANY gun from ANY source in the United States you must provide identification. This includes private transfers or sales, by the way. Juveniles cannot legally buy ANY firearm, in fact they can't even buy BB guns.
No records are required to be kept on such sales either, making it almost impossible for police to trace the weapons if they are used in a crime.
Not true. And you're still confusing "semi-automatic" firearms with "fully-automatic" firearms. The AK-47 you can buy at gun stores (and shows) is NOT, repeat NOT a machinegun or a fully-automatic weapon. Don't you care if any of your facts or basic premises are correct??
Please stop spreading these outright untruths. It's little more than FUD.
[TABLE class=report_card cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0] [TBODY] [TR vAlign=top] [TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 10px" vAlign=center align=middle colSpan=3] [DIV style="FONT: bold 12px/15px arial"]Missouri Receives a "D+" on Laws Shielding Families From Gun Violence[/DIV][/TD][/TR] [TR vAlign=top] [TD class=action_text]Legislation[/TD] [TD class=action_text align=middle]Grade[/TD] [TD class=action_text style="PADDING-LEFT: 6px"]Comments[/TD][/TR] [TR vAlign=top] [TD colSpan=3] [HR align=center width="100%" color=#000000 noShade SIZE=1] [/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD class=action_text id=report_grades_left align=left]Juvenile Possession Law [/TD] [TD class=action_text align=middle]B [/TD] [TD class=actionsmall id=report_grades_right]NOT SPECIFIED; handgun permits limited to persons over 21 [/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD class=action_text id=report_grades_left align=left]Juvenile Sale/Transfer Law [/TD] [TD class=action_text align=middle]A [/TD] [TD class=actionsmall id=report_grades_right]YES, handguns must be 21, other firearms 18 [/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD class=action_text id=report_grades_left align=left]Child Access Prevention Law [/TD] [TD class=action_text align=middle]F [/TD] [TD class=actionsmall id=report_grades_right]NONE [/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD class=action_text id=report_grades_left align=left]Gun Safety Locks and Safer Design Standards [/TD] [TD class=action_text align=middle]F [/TD] [TD class=actionsmall id=report_grades_right]NONE [/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD class=action_text id=report_grades_left align=left]Allow Cities To Regulate Guns (Non-Preempt) [/TD] [TD class=action_text align=middle]F [/TD] [TD class=actionsmall id=report_grades_right]NO [/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD class=action_text id=report_grades_left align=left]Secondary "Private" Sales Background Checks [/TD] [TD class=action_text align=middle]B+ [/TD] [TD class=actionsmall id=report_grades_right]YES, permit required for handgun sales [/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD class=action_text id=report_grades_left align=left]Carrying Concealed Weapons Law [/TD] [TD class=action_text align=middle]D- [/TD] [TD class=actionsmall id=report_grades_right]No police discretion, training, reciprocity, in cars w/o permit, 23 years old [/TD][/TR][!-- Extra Credit/Demerits --] [TR vAlign=top] [TD colSpan=3]
[TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0] [TBODY] [TR vAlign=top] [TD class=action_text noWrap]Extra Credit[/TD] [TD class=action_text style="PADDING-LEFT: 10px"]Demerits[/TD][/TR] [TR vAlign=top] [TD colSpan=3] [HR align=center width="100%" color=#000000 noShade SIZE=1] [/TD][/TR] [TR vAlign=top] [TD class=action_text]Permit needed to acquire handguns. [/TD] [TD class=action_text style="PADDING-LEFT: 10px"]Prohibits local government lawsuits against gun industry.[/TD][/TR][/TD][/TBODY][/TABLE][/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]
[TABLE class=gray13 width=500] [TBODY] [TR] [TD][/TD] [TD bgColor=#e5edff]St. Louis, MO[/TD] [TD bgColor=#e5edff]Kansas City, MO[/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD]Population:[/TD] [TD]335,143[/TD] [TD]446,659[/TD] [TD] [/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD bgColor=#e5edff]Murder:[/TD] [TD bgColor=#e5edff]113[/TD] [TD bgColor=#e5edff]89[/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD]Forcible Rape:[/TD] [TD]175[/TD] [TD]316[/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD bgColor=#e5edff]Robbery:[/TD] [TD bgColor=#e5edff]2632[/TD] [TD bgColor=#e5edff]1923[/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD]Aggravated Assault:[/TD] [TD]4041[/TD] [TD]4121[/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD bgColor=#e5edff]Burglary:[/TD] [TD bgColor=#e5edff]6300[/TD] [TD bgColor=#e5edff]6952[/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD]Larceny Theft:[/TD] [TD]23592[/TD] [TD]22800[/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD bgColor=#e5edff]Vehicle Theft:[/TD] [TD bgColor=#e5edff]8912[/TD] [TD bgColor=#e5edff]5314[/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]
Detroit
pop. 914,353
Crime: Total
Murder : 385
Forceable Rape : 719
Robbery : 5,451
Aggravated Assault : 9,358
Burglary : 12,202
Larceny Theft : 20,640
Vehicle Theft : 24, 573
Washington D.C.
pop. 553,523
Crime: Total
Murder: 198
Forceable Rape: 218
Robbery: 3,057
Aggravated Assault: 3,863
Burglary: 3,943
Larceny Theft: 13,756
Vehicle Theft: 8,136
Sportsdude wrote:
[table class="report_card" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"] [tbody] [tr valign="top"] [td style="padding-bottom: 10px;" colspan="3" align="center" valign="center"][font size="1"]
[/font][/td][/tr] [tr valign="top"] [td class="action_text"][font size="1"]Legislation[/font][/td] [td class="action_text" align="center"][font size="1"]Grade[/font][/td] [td class="action_text" style="padding-left: 6px;"][font size="1"]Comments[/font][/td][/tr] [tr valign="top"] [td colspan="3"] [hr style="height: 1px;" align="center" color="#000000" noshade="noshade" size="1" width="100%"] [/td][/tr] [tr] [td class="action_text" id="report_grades_left" align="left"][font size="1"]Juvenile Possession Law [/font][/td] [td class="action_text" align="center"][font size="1"]B[/font] [/td] [td class="actionsmall" id="report_grades_right"][font size="1"]NOT SPECIFIED; handgun permits limited to persons over 21 [/font][/td][/tr] [tr] [td class="action_text" id="report_grades_left" align="left"][font size="1"]Juvenile Sale/Transfer Law [/font][/td] [td class="action_text" align="center"][font size="1"]A[/font] [/td] [td class="actionsmall" id="report_grades_right"][font size="1"]YES, handguns must be 21, other firearms 18 [/font][/td][/tr] [tr] [td class="action_text" id="report_grades_left" align="left"][font size="1"]Child Access Prevention Law [/font][/td] [td class="action_text" align="center"][font size="1"]F[/font] [/td] [td class="actionsmall" id="report_grades_right"][font size="1"]NONE [/font][/td][/tr] [tr] [td class="action_text" id="report_grades_left" align="left"][font size="1"]Gun Safety Locks and Safer Design Standards [/font][/td] [td class="action_text" align="center"][font size="1"]F[/font] [/td] [td class="actionsmall" id="report_grades_right"][font size="1"]NONE [/font][/td][/tr] [tr] [td class="action_text" id="report_grades_left" align="left"][font size="1"]Allow Cities To Regulate Guns (Non-Preempt) [/font][/td] [td class="action_text" align="center"][font size="1"]F[/font] [/td] [td class="actionsmall" id="report_grades_right"][font size="1"]NO [/font][/td][/tr] [tr] [td class="action_text" id="report_grades_left" align="left"][font size="1"]Secondary "Private" Sales Background Checks [/font][/td] [td class="action_text" align="center"][font size="1"]B+[/font] [/td] [td class="actionsmall" id="report_grades_right"][font size="1"]YES, permit required for handgun sales [/font][/td][/tr] [tr] [td class="action_text" id="report_grades_left" align="left"][font size="1"]Carrying Concealed Weapons Law [/font][/td] [td class="action_text" align="center"][font size="1"]D-[/font] [/td] [td class="actionsmall" id="report_grades_right"][font size="1"]No police discretion, training, reciprocity, in cars w/o permit, 23 years old [/font][/td][/tr][!-- Extra Credit/Demerits --] [tr valign="top"] [td colspan="3"][font size="1"]
[/font] [table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"] [tbody] [tr valign="top"] [td class="action_text" nowrap="nowrap"][font size="1"]Extra Credit[/font][/td] [td class="action_text" style="padding-left: 10px;"][font size="1"]Demerits[/font][/td][/tr] [tr valign="top"] [td colspan="3"] [hr style="height: 1px;" align="center" color="#000000" noshade="noshade" size="1" width="100%"] [/td][/tr] [tr valign="top"] [td class="action_text"][font size="1"]Permit needed to acquire handguns. [/font][/td] [td class="action_text" style="padding-left: 10px;"][font size="1"]Prohibits local government lawsuits against gun industry.[/font][/td][/tr][/tbody][/table][/td][/tr][/tbody][/table][font size="1"]
[/font]You're proving exactly what I said- juveniles CANNOT buy handguns or long guns. Period. You must be 18 or older, and it says so right in your chart.
Access Prevention laws are ridiculous- they sound great but in reality are useless and work against the interest of public safety.
[font style="font-weight: bold;" size="2"]Secondary "Private" Sales: Background Checks [/font][font style="font-weight: bold;" size="2"]YES, permit required for handgun sales [/font]
I could have sworn you said there was no check required. But there is, isn't there?
[font size="1"] Sportsdude wrote:
[/font] [table class="gray13" width="500"] [tbody] [tr] [td]
[/td] [td bgcolor="#e5edff"][font size="1"]St. Louis, MO[/font][/td] [td bgcolor="#e5edff"][font size="1"]Kansas City, MO[/font][/td][/tr] [tr] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);"][font size="1"]Population:[/font][/td] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);"][font size="1"]335,143[/font][/td] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);"][font size="1"]446,659[/font][/td] [td][font size="1"] [/font][/td][/tr] [tr] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);" bgcolor="#e5edff"][font size="1"]Murder:[/font][/td] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);" bgcolor="#e5edff"][font size="1"]113[/font][/td] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);" bgcolor="#e5edff"][font size="1"]89[/font][/td][/tr] [tr] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);"][font size="1"]Forcible Rape:[/font][/td] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);"][font size="1"]175[/font][/td] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);"][font size="1"]316[/font][/td][/tr] [tr] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);" bgcolor="#e5edff"][font size="1"]Robbery:[/font][/td] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);" bgcolor="#e5edff"][font size="1"]2632[/font][/td] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);" bgcolor="#e5edff"][font size="1"]1923[/font][/td][/tr] [tr] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);"][font size="1"]Aggravated Assault:[/font][/td] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);"][font size="1"]4041[/font][/td] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);"][font size="1"]4121[/font][/td][/tr] [tr] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);" bgcolor="#e5edff"][font size="1"]Burglary:[/font][/td] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);" bgcolor="#e5edff"][font size="1"]6300[/font][/td] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);" bgcolor="#e5edff"][font size="1"]6952[/font][/td][/tr] [tr] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);"][font size="1"]Larceny Theft:[/font][/td] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);"][font size="1"]23592[/font][/td] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);"][font size="1"]22800[/font][/td][/tr] [tr] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);" bgcolor="#e5edff"][font size="1"]Vehicle Theft:[/font][/td] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);" bgcolor="#e5edff"][font size="1"]8912[/font][/td] [td style="color: rgb(162, 162, 162);" bgcolor="#e5edff"][font size="1"]5314[/font][/td][/tr][/tbody][/table] [font size="1"]Posting reams of stats is not going to prove your point, nor does it show anything substantive.
[/font][/p][font size="1"]
[/font]
Houston, Texas
pop: 2,043,446
Crime: Total
Murder : 272
Forceable Rape : 908
Robbery : 10,182
Aggravated Assault : 12,065
Burglary : 27,110
Larceny Theft : 74,752
Vehicle Theft : 21,563
Dallas, Texas
pop. 1,228,613
Crime: Total
Murder : 248
Forceable Rape : 588
Robbery : 74,666
Aggravated Assault : 7,863
Burglary : 23,126
Larceny Theft : 55,059
Vehicle Theft : 15,881[/DIV]
San Antonio, Texas
pop. 1,235,128
Crime: Total
Murder : 94
Forceable Rape : 667
Robbery : 2,127
Aggravated Assault : 4,948
Burglary : 14,720
Larceny Theft : 60,868
Vehicle Theft : 5,667[/DIV]
Well this thread is about crime in america so I'll keep posting stats. Atlanta, Phoenix and Tampa are next.
I wasn't talking about minors buying guns. I'm talking about criminals buying guns. There are loop holes in missouri's system. And when the concealed weapon law passed it stated that people can have a hand gun in their car WITHOUT a permit. Now this doesn't really bother me when it comes to responsible owners like you Tehborken. I'm talking about gangs and street violence in our cities. What people do with there guns for recreational purposes I don't care its the GUNS ON THE STREET that worries me because I've seen them at schools, alley ways, mardi gras etc. Bottom line when people are shooting holes into the Edward Jones Dome, roof from interstate 70 YOU HAVE A GUN PROBLEM.
Atlanta, Georgia
pop. 430,066
Crime: Total
Murder : 112
Forceable Rape : 267
Robbery : 3,116
Aggravated Assault : 4,427
Burglary : 6,726
Larceny Theft : 20,703
Vehicle Theft : 5,756
Phoenix, Arizona
pop. 1,428,973
Crime: Total
Murder : 202
Forceable Rape : 490
Robbery : 3,723
Aggravated Assault : 5,050
Burglary : 16,496
Larceny Theft : 53,041
Vehicle Theft : 24,869[/DIV][/DIV]
Los Angeles
pop. 3,864,018
Crime: Total
Murder : 518
Forceable Rape : 1,131
Robbery : 14,181
Aggravated Assault : 26,956
Burglary : 23,182
Larceny Theft : 72,045
Vehicle Theft : 29,973
New York
pop. 8,101,321
Crime: Total
Murder : 570
Forceable Rape : 1,428
Robbery : 24,373
Aggravated Assault : 29,317
Burglary : 26,100
Larceny Theft : 124,016
Vehicle Theft : 21,072[/DIV][/DIV]
Impressive figures, but you won't change my mind - I'm still not going to visit America.
Seattle, Washington
pop. 575,816
Crime: Total
Murder : 24
Forceable Rape : 145
Robbery : 1,588
Aggravated Assault : 2,041
Burglary : 7,734
Larceny Theft : 25,810
Vehicle Theft : 9,253
Portland, Oregon
pop. 543,838
Crime: Total
Murder : 29
Forceable Rape : 313
Robbery : 1,287
Aggravated Assault : 2,405
Burglary : 7,237
Larceny Theft : 28,322
Vehicle Theft : 5,936
All Crime Statistics based on final 2004 FBI Crim Statistics.[/DIV]
Gopher wrote:
Impressive figures, but you won't change my mind - I'm still not going to visit America.[/DIV]
[FONT size=7]LOLOLOL.[/FONT]
[FONT size=7][/FONT]
I must commend Seattle. They are doing good on the crime although everyone has room for improvement.
A few years ago I was trying to impress upon a friend here in Vancouver the extent to which guns infect the urban landscape in the US, and I was able to pull out an example. When I still lived in the US I discovered one of those "R&B oldies" stations driving through Cincinnati that I still listen to from time to time through their website. Come the late Spring and Summer months, if I'm listening during their evening commute hours, the traffic report regularly features reports on places where traffic has been diverted because of police incidents with guns involved. Cincinnati metro area's population is just a little under that of the GVRD, so I believe it provides an apt comparison.
One of the aspects of the massive incarceration rates in the US (especially the disproportionate jailing of African-American males) that bothers me the most is the trend of increasing penalties for minor non-violent drug offences--especially involving drugs that are not associated with violent behaviour (particularly marijuana and hallucinogenic drugs). I don't use street drugs, but I've yet to see anyone get violent under the influence of these drugs--certainly not like a lot of the mean drunks I've witnessed.
I find it ironic that, just as numerous state and county governments started enacting laws requiring prisoners to work, and the development of the "prison-industrial complex" (a great source of cheap labour without having to go overseas), they enacted similar laws raising minimum sentences for non-violent drug offences. Does it have anything to do with the fact that these offenders in general are better educated and have better behaviour records while incarcerated than violent offenders? They make better workers, after all.
As far as I'm concerned, the government should rename these medium- and minimum-security prisons "plantations", as that seems to be a more apt term to use.
And I doubt Vancouver gets race riots when a white cop shoots and kills a black man.
Sportsdude wrote:
And I doubt Vancouver gets race riots when a white cop shoots and kills a black man.
To be perfectly honest, I don't see that happening here--but only because the black population seems to be more concentrated in New West (at least from my experience--most of the black people I've known here are first- and second-generation West Indian).
However, if you want to see the kind of overbearing racism that serves as a greater deterrent to any type of self-assertion by people of colour, go to the thread on DV from the past week after four members of a Congolese family were burned to death by an arson fire in their house. The basic insinuation is that it had to have been gang-related. If it had been a family from Russia I doubt people would have seized upon a Russian mafia connection . . .
I've only been here four years, but from what I see, the fact that the Native population hasn't been rioting here only serves to indicate how deeply entrenched, especially at the government level, racism is here in Vancouver. To whit: I haven't had occasion to deal with the VPD directly, but I live in a neighbourhood with a lot of drug and sex trade, so I witness police activity on a regular basis. You don't even see that many police officers who are females, much less members of any visible minority. In fact, the only non-white cop I've ever seen was an East Asian guy I saw working an undercover drug sting near my house. Sure enough, the guy they were in the process of arresting was East Indian.
Sportsdude wrote:
I wasn't talking about minors buying guns. I'm talking about criminals buying guns.
Well, actually, that's exactly what you were talking about- minors buying guns:
"[a href="vny!://discoverseattle.net/forums/index.php/topic,1440.msg15102.html#msg15102"]making it easy for criminals and even juveniles to buy as many guns as they want[/a]."
That's been shown to be false.
Here are some other things you've posted:
"And I don't know Washington State laws but in Missouri you can just buy just about anything at a gun show."
Shown by your own chart and stats to be untrue.
"For example you can by machine guns at a gun show and not have to go through a security check."
Not true, as shown by your own chart and by any perusal of State and Federal laws.
"We have no checks on guns or even bullets."
Not true, according to both State and Federal laws.
"NRA stopped legislation passing that would ban bullet proof vest piercing bullets."
That's not what happened, but it sure makes a tasty sound bite.
There are loop holes in missouri's system.
Maybe, but it's not the fault of an inanimate object any more than "loopholes" in sales of cars can be blamed on the cars themselves. Sorry.
And when the concealed weapon law passed it stated that people can have a hand gun in their car WITHOUT a permit.
I fully agree, a person should be allowed to transport a firearm in their vehicle without having to get a permit to do so. How else would you get it from point A to point B? I'm serious- how would you take it to the range if not in your car? Mail it?
Now this doesn't really bother me when it comes to responsible owners like you Tehborken.
How do you know I'm responsible? Because I say so? What bothers you is that you is that you appear to discount by default the idea of gun ownership by the general public. I don't, and I also recognize the inherent dangers in such a proposition.
"Bottom line when people are shooting holes into the Edward Jones Dome, roof from interstate 70 YOU HAVE A GUN PROBLEM."
No, you have a people problem, and I'm sorry you can't tell the difference. I've never seen a gun jump off the table, force its owner into a car and them make him or her go on a shooting spree. Usually it's the dumbf*ck holding the gun, and no amount of laws are going to alter their behavior- all you'll do is make it impossible for ordinary law-abiding people like me to defend themselves against the shitbags that are ignoring all your fancy laws and restrictions.
Then how would you get guns off the streets?
How would you stop gang violence?
How would you stop easy access for criminals to get guns?
[DIV class=head2]JENNINGS: 16-year-old boy is fatally shot
[DIV class=byLine align=left][/DIV]
[DIV class=byLine]05/21/2006
[DIV class=story align=left] [DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; FLOAT: left; WIDTH: 1px; HEIGHT: 125px"][/DIV]
A 16-year-old boy from Black Jack was shot and killed Friday night, Jennings police said Saturday.
The slain youth, Marquis Payne, was at the corner of Jennings Station Road and McLaran Avenue when a male shot him with a pistol, Detective Dave Joyce said.
Marquis staggered into a nearby store and told the clerk to call police before collapsing, Joyce said. Marquis died later at a hospital, he said.
Joyce said police believe they know what sparked the shooting but were still investigating.
[DIV class=story align=left]
[DIV class=story align=left] [DIV class=head2]
[DIV class=head2]ST. LOUIS: Police identify teen who was fatally shot
[DIV class=byLine align=left][/DIV]
[DIV class=byLine]05/17/2006
[DIV class=story align=left] [DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; FLOAT: left; WIDTH: 1px; HEIGHT: 125px"][/DIV]
A teen who was fatally shot Monday night in the 2500 block of Texas Avenue has been identified as Ronald Buchanan, 16, St. Louis police said Tuesday.
Homicide detectives said they knew of no motive for the killing. A male apparently walked up to the youth on the sidewalk about 9:15 p.m., shot him in the head and then ran off. Buchanan lived in the 2200 block of Missouri Avenue.
[DIV class=story align=left]
[DIV class=story align=left]
[DIV class=story align=left]Two shootings that happend in the past couple of days. Atleast 5 of these happen every week. Most with no motive.[/DIV][/DIV]
And then next door to st. louis is east st. louis one of the most crime ridden and scariest places in the united states.
[A href="vny!://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Saint_Louis,_Illinois#Crime"]vny!://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Saint_Louis,_Illinois#Crime[/A]
Sportsdude wrote:
Then how would you get guns off the streets?
You can't. I thought you understood that. It would be like getting cars off the streets. It ain't gonna happen.
[/div] [div]How would you stop gang violence?
Not by "outlawing" something they'll be able to get anyway! Get real- do you think that gang members go to gun stores or shows to buy their weapons? Hell no, they get them by theft and fencing, not by filling out forms and waiting 5 days. I mean, Hello?
Look, gang violence doesn't depend upon access to firearms. I thought you realized that.
How would you stop easy access for criminals to get guns?
How would you stop easy access for criminals to get drugs?
Sportsdude wrote:
[div class="head2"]JENNINGS: 50,000 residents not shot[/div] [div class="byLine" align="left"][/div]
[div class="byLine"]05/21/2006[/div] [div class="story" align="left"] [div style="margin-top: 0px; float: left; width: 1px; height: 125px;"][/div]
Over 50,000 residents were not shot and killed Friday night, Jennings police said Saturday.
Many people just went about their business and were not killed by gun-wielding maniacs, Detective Dave Joyce said.
Residents went shopping, saw movies, and mowed their lawns, he said.
Joyce said police believe they know what sparked the lack of shootings but were still investigating. [/div] [div class="story" align="left"] [/div] [div class="story" align="left"] [div class="head2"] [/div] [div class="head2"]ST. LOUIS: Police identify thousands who were not fatally shot[/div] [div class="byLine" align="left"][/div]
[div class="byLine"]05/17/2006[/div] [div class="story" align="left"] [div style="margin-top: 0px; float: left; width: 1px; height: 125px;"][/div]
Thousands of residents who were not shot by firearms were identified as "just regular folks", St. Louis police said Tuesday.
Homicide detectives said they knew of no motive for the lack of killings. A male apparently walked up to the youth on the sidewalk about 9:15 p.m., had a conversation and then ran off without killing anyone. Police were shocked.
[/div] [div class="story" align="left"] [/div] [div class="story" align="left"] [/div] [div class="story" align="left"]Two shootings that happened in the past couple of days, as opposed to millions of shootings that didn't occur. At least 5,000,000 of these non-shootings happen every week. Most with no motive.[/div][/div]
Stop trying to make this about gun owners. I'm talking about taking guns off the street in places where they shouldn't be and places where gun crime is out of control. I'm talking about illegal guns. Guns and Gangs.
Here's what North Saint Louis looks like:
(//vny!://www.builtstlouis.net/northside/images/stlouisplace/23rd-north_of_cass.jpg)
(//vny!://www.builtstlouis.net/northside/images/stlouisplace/howard2200.jpg)
(//vny!://www.builtstlouis.net/northside/images/stlouisplace/howard2200-2.jpg)
(//vny!://www.builtstlouis.net/northside/images/stlouisplace/market2300.jpg)
(//vny!://www.builtstlouis.net/northside/images/stlouisplace/stlouis_place-560.jpg)
(//vny!://www.builtstlouis.net/northside/images/stlouisplace/stlouis_place-902.jpg)
Sportsdude wrote:
Stop trying to make this about gun owners.
Stop trying to blame people's bad behavior on inanimate objects.
I'm talking about taking guns off the street in places where they shouldn't be and places where gun crime is out of control.
Good for you. Don't step on my law-abiding toes while you do it.
Here's what North Saint Louis looks like:
So what? Does North Saint Louis look like this because of guns, or could there just possibly be additional social factors at work?
So what? Does North Saint Louis look like this because of [SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"]guns,[/SPAN] or could there [SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"]just possibly[/SPAN] be additional social factors at work?
Both. Saint Louis is a de facto community when it comes to race. Its been segregated from the begining with certain areas labeled as black areas where we've grown up being taught not to go to hence they're teaching us racism. There are places where black people are taught not to go to because they will get checked, pulled over and harrassed by the police, especially at night. In the seventies the white people that lived in North Saint Louis moved out to St. Charles County this was called the "white flight". Since then the area has been in decline. Urban decay has taken place but its due to many factors one of them gang crime and drug crime. And this is where illegal guns come in. To blame "the gun" for North St. Louis and now North St. Louis County's problem on it would be wrong but it is a significant factor.
Sportsdude wrote:
Both. Saint Louis is a de facto community when it comes to race.
That has nothing to do with guns, gun ownership, or misuse of firearms.
Its been segregated from the begining with certain areas labeled as black areas where we've grown up being taught not to go to hence they're teaching us racism. There are places where black people are taught not to go to because they will get checked, pulled over and harrassed by the police, especially at night.
That also has nothing to do with guns, gun ownership, or misuse of firearms.
In the seventies the white people that lived in North Saint Louis moved out to St. Charles County this was called the "white flight". Since then the area has been in decline.
Again, that has nothing to do with guns, gun ownership, or misuse of firearms.
Urban decay has taken place but its due to many factors one of them gang crime and drug crime. And this is where illegal guns come in. To blame "the gun" for North St. Louis and now North St. Louis County's problem on it [span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"]would be wrong [/span]but it is a significant factor.
I'd like to see that stats that support your opinions on how firearms destroyed this community and/or were responsible for any of the things you mentioned above. Because I can't make heads or tails of your "proof" and your claims have been thoroughly debunked. You yourself admit that "To blame "the gun" for North St. Louis and now North St. Louis County's problem on it [span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"]would be wrong".[/span] Well, okay, so which is it?
You began by claiming all sorts of incredible shit- "anyone can buy a machine gun", "juveniles can buy machine guns", "no background checks are required for gun purchases", etc etc. And it was all FALSE- every bit of it.
Now you're going on and on about St. Louis neighborhoods and how crappy they are, but you refuse to acknowledge that [span style="text-decoration: underline;"]virtually every single thing you originally claimed is, in fact, utter crap. [/span]
Pardon me if I lose interest in this conversation from here on out, okay?
[font style="font-style: italic;" size="1"]Edited to tone down my language - tb[/font]
[FONT color=#00482f size=+1]Consent to Search and Seize Firearms -- St. Louis, MO[/FONT] [FONT size=-1]Program Type or Federal Program Source:
Program to deter illegal gun possession. Program Goal:
To reduce juvenile possession and carrying of guns. Specific Groups Targeted by the Strategy:
Juveniles engaged in gun violence. Geographical Area Targeted by the Strategy:
St. Louis, MO. Evaluated by:
Department of Criminology
University of Missouri
St. Louis, MO 63103
Phone: 314­516­5031 Contact Information:
Sergeant Robert Heimberger
St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department
1200 Clark Boulevard
St. Louis, MO 63103
Phone: 314­444­5681 Years of Operation:
1994­present.[/FONT] [HR SIZE=1] Through the late 1980's and early 1990's, St. Louis experienced a greater increase in homicides and other violent crimes than most other U.S. cities of comparable demographics. Homicides increased dramatically (68 percent) from 1988 to 1989, rising from 130 murders to 219. The percentage of homicide suspects who were juveniles also increased from 4.9 percent in the early 1980's to 15.1 percent in the early 1990's. A profile of victims and suspects revealed that the vast majority of both offenders and victims were young black males and, in nearly all cases, homicides involved the use of a handgun. [FONT color=#00482f]Firearm Suppression Program (FSP)[/FONT] The St. Louis Police Department implemented FSP in 1994 in an effort to reduce the level of gun violence in the community. The overall goal of this initiative was to develop a community-based, problem-solving approach that would encourage greater community input and assistance in addressing gun violence and that would involve community residents in a process of identifying and confiscating illegal guns. The specific strategy was to remove firearms from juveniles by obtaining parents' consent to search for and seize firearms from their children and others living with them. FSP was initiated by the St. Louis Mobile Reserve Unit, a police squad that responds to pockets of crime and violence throughout the city. The search of a home by the FSP can be initiated by citizen requests for police service, reports from other police units, or by information gained from other investigations. Once the unit receives a report, two officers visit the residence in question, speak with an adult resident, and request permission to search the home for illegal weapons. An innovative feature of this program is the use of a "Consent to Search and Seize" form to secure legal access to the residence. Officers inform the adult resident (typically a mother) that the purpose of the program is to confiscate illegal firearms, particularly those belonging to juveniles, without seeking criminal prosecution. Residents are informed that they will not be charged with the illegal possession of a firearm if they sign the consent form. By agreeing not to file criminal charges, the police can focus their attention on getting guns out of the hands of juveniles and send a clear message that juvenile firearm possession is not tolerated by police or the community. The program has been criticized as depriving citizens of the right to protect themselves against crime. Furthermore, some senior police officers have stated that they prefer to use legal search warrants as they allow them both to arrest juvenile suspects and other persons engaged in criminal activity and to seize the guns. Despite this criticism, however, evaluation of the program indicated a favorable response by families of juveniles who had guns confiscated and by the broader community. According to anecdotal reports, one parent even wanted to presign consent forms so that the officers could return any time. Another parent wanted to give officers a key to her house so that they could come in while she was at work. According to the officers of the Mobile Reserve Unit, the program's success depended on their scrupulous adherence to the promise not to arrest the consenting adult. Several officers reported that they were willing to ignore evidence of all but the most serious crimes in return for access to homes of juveniles with firearms. This reflected the officers' view that the community was better served by removing guns from juvenile hands than by using evidence discovered in the search as a basis for making an arrest. Over the 3-year demonstration period from 1994 to 1997, a total of more than 1,300 guns were seized. FSP officers reported that they conducted approximately 260 searches per year, finding guns in about half the houses. An outcome evaluation of the program is being considered. [FONT color=#00482f]Cease Fire program[/FONT] In 1997, FSP was incorporated into a broader law enforcement initiative called Cease Fire (modeled after Operation Ceasefire in Boston -- see [A href="vny!://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/pubs/gun_violence/profile21.html"]profile 21[/A]), which is a coordinated effort across several law enforcement agencies to reduce youth violence. This program is being spearheaded by the U.S. Attorney's Offices in the Eastern District of Missouri and the Southern District of Illinois, but includes partners from the FBI; DEA; ATF; St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department; St. Louis City Sheriff's Department; St. Louis County Police Department; Missouri Highway Patrol; St. Louis County Prosecutor's Office; Illinois State Police; U.S. Marshals' Office; Jefferson County Sheriff's Office; Regional Anti-Violence Initiative; OJJDP SafeFutures program; St. Louis Family Court; Missouri Probation and Parole; St. Louis Public Schools; University of Missouri, St. Louis; and St. Louis City Neighborhood Stabilization Team. Cease Fire's three-part strategy includes a crackdown on illicit gun trafficking through ATF's gun-tracing program; a swift response to acts of gang violence through intensive surveillance, youth outreach streetworkers, and social service interventions (a Ten-Point Coalition of religious leaders is taking a key role in gang intervention efforts -- see [A href="vny!://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/pubs/gun_violence/profile46.html"]profile 46[/A]); and Operation Night Light which sends police and probation teams out together on nightly visits to the homes of youth on probation to ensure compliance with the terms of their probation. [FONT color=#00482f]Gang Outreach[/FONT] One Cease Fire component, the Gang Outreach program, was launched in 1998 by the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department and targets youth from neighborhoods that have either a high level of gang violence or few social service resources. When a gang-involved youth is shot, police contact a team of counseling professionals from Central Baptist Family Services, who meet with the youth. The goal of this counseling is to prevent victims or their friends from retaliating and to encourage them to leave gangs. While the counselor is working with the victim, police make contact with the parent and, using the "consent to search and seize" protocols, obtain permission to search the youth's home for weapons and other contraband. These initiatives have resulted in youth moving their weapons from their family homes to abandoned buildings in the neighborhood. In response, police initiated the Demolition Project. Under this program, when police identify high-profile houses that are linked to gang activity, they have the authority to secure them (board them up) or raze them. Police now find that 40 percent of the abandoned buildings they search contain firearms or other contraband.
I hate to wade into this water, but I think you both forget that most people's feelings lie somewhere in between your arguments. Plus, changing circumstances may lead us to change our minds as well. You want an example of that, look at the "Brady Bill".
I've spent most of my life being firmly pro-gun control until recently, growing up with horror stories of friends and family members who were careful and responsible gun owners who got killed or injured in freak accidents involving firearms (including one funny anecdote about a guy who accidentally blew up his TV while cleaning a hunting rifle).
I was always deathly afraid of guns ever since a neighbour borrowed his dad's pistol to use in a cops and robbers game when I was a kid. On a ski trip to the Sierras many years ago, one of my friends tried to show me how to use his handgun because we were staying in an area known for the occasional bear attack. I started hyperventilating just looking at the thing and said I'd take my chances with the bears.
Right out of college I moved to a city I didn't know very well and discovered how dangerous my neighbourhood was when I was robbed at gunpoint, and then waited on the street at night next to a phone booth for two hours waiting for the police. After a few more incidents like that, my mother offered to get me a "stun gun" (they were still legal in some states at that time). I declined, as (unbeknownst to her) as a teenager I had been stranger-raped by a guy who got a tear-gas cannister (also a present from my mother) away from me and used it as a weapon on me instead. I figured if someone could get a stun gun away from me he'd take away my ability to run away. Sure enough, six months later I outran a mugger and I'm glad I didn't have a weapon on me.
I'm older now and have had a few injuries that leave me slower and not as strong as I was as a cocky young kid. I've travelled alone by car all over the US and Canada, but I'm becoming hesitant now to do so without some way of protecting myself. Methamphetamine is making its way into rural areas in Canada now, and I've already had a few white-knuckle moments driving through deserted stretches of the rural US in broad daylight with no towns or other drivers for 100 miles or so, with some good ol' boy playing cat and mouse games on the road with me, and probably getting a big laugh out of scaring some poor woman half out of her wits.
If I didn't live in Canada, where it's next to impossible to get one, I would purchase a handgun and get extensive training in how to use it, especially from a self-defence point of view, for when I travel alone. Most of the time when someone wants to give a person they consider vulnerable a hard time, all they have to do is see that you have a gun to leave you alone. If that isn't sufficient deterrent, then they're probably so wacked out on meth or something that you won't have any other way to defend yourself. I've seen people become violent while on that substance and know how volatile they are. I also know myself well enough to know that I don't stand much of a chance unarmed.
Obviously, this is just my own subjective opinion. But ask anyone who has been a victim of violent crime--especially if they're female and/or elderly--and you might find one very similar to mine, or at the very least not on either extreme of the debate.
Oh, and just for the record (not that it makes any difference), most of the "perpetrators" of the crimes I've dealt with were white.
I declined, as (unbeknownst to her) as a teenager I had been stranger-raped by a guy who got a tear-gas cannister (also a present from my mother) away from me and used it as a weapon on me instead.
Oh blimey, Dissident. So sorry to hear that.... don't know what else to say.
Just part of growing up in the good ol' US of A. I look at it as a learning experience. Canadians for the most part don't know how lucky they are. Considering my background as a white, college-educated, middle-class female, I'm lucky too.
Talk to 10 American women over 25 you'll probably find at least half of them have experienced physical and/or sexual assault at least once in their lives.
I just wanted to let these two big strong men know that there's another perspective on their debate--one that knows no class or race.
I want to maintain an independent lifestyle. I've learned from experience the things I have to know to look after myself--but I'm going to be damned if I can't drive from Vancouver to Montreal or from Seattle to Chicago on my own. And if I have to carry a gun to do it, I will.
Thanks for reminding me that, in many ways, Canada rocks.
Dissident, you're one of the strongest lady I know. It's so nice and refreshing to see that here. I don't know I would have done had I been in your shoes.
I'm staying out of the 'debate' here with SD and TehBorken. My life has been pretty much gun-free for the most part and I'm hoping it'll stay that way.
And yes, Canada rocks! Ppl should appreciate her all the more.
Okay to everyone on here I am not anti gun. In fact I actually technically own one (.22 rifle with a scope) granted it came into my hands through grandpa's will. I go hunting every year with my cousins not as a hunter but just to walk around. I don't mind hunting (as long as its real hunting and not that stupid big game hunting thats a complete joke for the rich people). I also don't mind hand guns. I just don't want guns landing in peoples hand that
A) Have a criminal record
B) Mentally unstable
C) Terrorist or some anarchist cook (Eric Rudolph, The Unibomber, Tim McViegh)
But I also do not want assault weapons available to anyone. For example my cousin just bought a SG80 or some military type rifle. I asked what are you going to do with that thing since you can't hunt deer with anything but a shotgun in Illinois. He said to use it for shits and giggles. Some people don't want to believe it but those type of guns trickle albeit legal or illegal on to the streets at some point.
Last time I brought up the gun issue and Tehborken got mad at me was over an article in the Seattle PI about the Capitol Hill Massacre. If the guy who killed all those people was a resident of Washington he would not and never have been allowed to own a gun again because he would have violated A & B on my list. But he happend to live in Montana.
Those are the people I don't want to have guns. Crazy people and guns are a bad cocktail. If the government can take your license away because of drinking and driving because your determental to society they should be able to do the same with guns. After all if I'm a tv host on public broadcasting and I say 'f*ck', I will get fined, suspended and fired no matter what the first admendment says.
I never understand the need for guns. Sorry, SD but I really don't. Guns are made for one purpose and one purpose only, TO KILL. It doesn't matter how you look it it, they're weapons and should be wiped out from the face of the earth.
Yes I know but when something is written in the bill of rights you can't really change it.
Well, look at it this way, SD. My family came to the US in the late 17th century and fought in the Revolution and later for the North in the Civil War.
At the time firearms were the cutting edge of technology in warfare, and controlling them was paramount to suppressing opposition to tyranny.
These days, maybe the equivalent would be to cut off people's access to the Internet? I dunno. I was arrested a few times during the first Gulf War exercising my First Amendment right to assemble and to "petition the government for redress of grievances" (none of the charges stuck, btw--our Constitution in action for good, in my case).
Guns are still around and don't really serve any purpose in our society aside from hunting, for the most part. BUT . . . how would you feel if your granny got knocked over by some trailer-park denizens looking for some easy cash to get spun? Or if your wife or sister gets raped by a man twice her size and strength? You can't personally look after your loved ones 24/7.
God knows, I'm strong, I'm not stupid, and I've tried to learn street smarts in my day, but I'm not going to spend my entire life locked indoors. I don't think you want your loved ones to have to do the same.
Even if an attacker doesn't have a gun, what chance does a woman half his size and 2-3 times his age have, without something to be an equaliser? What do you suggest, that she call the police?
Sometimes I wish the police would make some of these boneheaded young people give their guns to their elderly relatives instead of turning them in. Considering that there's a good chance that a lot of those handguns were stolen from retirees' homes in the wealthy suburbs, it seems only fair.
Tasers?
Really I know where you are coming from. If you look into my earlier posts my church has been broken into twice, shot at once. A family friends mother was shot in killed in a drive by in her car about 15 years ago. Another family friend's great grandmother got mugged by a man in North St. Louis she was 95 and she died from the mugging. Never found the guy. I've never been mugged but I've been beaten up really badly back in middle school and high school by a bunch of thugs. (it takes more then one person to take me down) but that happend on school grounds and not on the streets where I would garuntee you one of the people would have had a gun. Its too easy for kids these days to get there hands on a weapon. I never went to the night clubs that guys on my football team went to but I remember 5 stories of fights that escaladed into shootouts leaving people dead.
Sportsdude wrote:
Okay to everyone on here I am not anti gun.
Me neither. lol
In fact I actually technically own one (.22 rifle with a scope) granted it came into my hands through grandpa's will.
Where's the "technically" part? Do you own a gun or not?
I just don't want guns landing in peoples hand that [/div] [div style="font-style: italic;"]A) Have a criminal record[/div] [div style="font-style: italic;"]B) Mentally unstable[/div] [div style="font-style: italic;"]C) Terrorist or some anarchist cook (Eric Rudolph, The Unibomber, Tim McViegh)
No argument there. I agree completely.
But I also do not want assault weapons available to anyone. For example my cousin just bought a SG80 or some military type rifle. I asked what are you going to do with that thing since you can't hunt deer with anything but a shotgun in Illinois. He said to use it for shits and giggles.
You know SD, incredible as it may seem, some people actually have an interest in firearms the same way other people have an interest in hot rods, computers, football, card collecting, etc etc.
You make it sound as though he needs a reason to own that rifle. He doesn't, any more than my neighbor needs to have a 1965 Mustang with the Hemi engine. Why would he need a car that can go that fast? It should be illegal, right? It's so fast that I wouldn't want that car available to just anyone.
Some people don't want to believe it but those type of guns trickle albeit legal or illegal on to the streets at some point.
That's absolutely true, and the same is true of cars- some are stolen and end up being sold to god knows who! It should be illegal! Oh, wait...it is, and that hasn't stopped it from happening...hmmmmm....
Last time I brought up the gun issue and Tehborken got mad at me was over an article in the Seattle PI about the Capitol Hill Massacre.
I didn't get mad at you, I just told you that you were wrong about some of your statements. Like this next one....
"If the guy who killed all those people was a resident of Washington he would not and never have been allowed to own a gun again because he would have violated A & B on my list."
And of course he could never have gotten one illegally, right? He might not be "allowed to own one" but that wouldn't stop him from getting one. Just like people who aren't allowed to drive but still do. The problem is that by and large laws don't work. People who want to commit a crime aren't deterred by "laws". After all, they're committing a crime, why should anyone expect them to obey the law??
But he happend to live in Montana.
And it wouldn't have mattered if he'd lived on a Lunar Colony. People who want to get something (guns, drugs, etc) will do it. For example, just look at the drug problem in prison. I mean, it's prison, and they still can't keep drugs out! People will try to get the things they want and they won't usually give a damn about the law.
Crazy people and guns are a bad cocktail.
No argument here.
If the government can take your license away because of drinking and driving because your determental to society they should be able to do the same with guns.
And therein lies the fallacy, SD. The government can suspend or revoke your driver's license, but it won't keep you from driving if you really want to. Just like with drugs. Just like with guns. Just like with abortions. Just like with anything.
Basically my point is this: if someone hits you with a hammer, don't blame the hammer. It's not the hammer's fault. And the fault doesn't lay in the fact that hammers are available to anyone. It's the person on the other end of the hammer who's to blame, okay?
Sportsdude wrote:
Tasers?
Really I know where you are coming from. If you look into my earlier posts my church has been broken into twice, shot at once. A family friends mother was shot in killed in a drive by in her car about 15 years ago. Another family friend's great grandmother got mugged by a man in North St. Louis she was 95 and she died from the mugging. Never found the guy. I've never been mugged but I've been beaten up really badly back in middle school and high school by a bunch of thugs. (it takes more then one person to take me down) but that happend on school grounds and not on the streets where I would garuntee you one of the people would have had a gun. Its too easy for kids these days to get there hands on a weapon. I never went to the night clubs that guys on my football team went to but I remember 5 stories of fights that escaladed into shootouts leaving people dead.
God, that's awful. It's terrible when anyone is killed, no matter how old they are, but I've got a couple of aunts in their 90s and it would break my heart if, after all they did for their family, they were killed in such a horrendous manner.
I agree with you in so many ways about how bad things are with guns in neighbourhoods. Just a few weeks ago a guy in the witness protection program in SF slipped away from his "keepers" to visit a friend in his neighbourhood and he was killed before he could testify. Though people in San Francisco used to call me a racist for complaining about it, I got tired of dealing with a nightclub two doors away from me (in a relatively well-off area near the downtown area) that was frequented by Korean gangsters. Club patrons used to park in a lot across the street from my place. There were numerous stabbings in that parking lot and occasional gunfire, and it scared the Christ out of me.
But from my point of view it doesn't matter the colour of the aggressors or the victims. You can't defend yourself with a knife. If the range of a taser gun allows an old or disabled person to disable an attacker without coming with striking range and gives them enough time to get away, then I'm for that, believe me. Otherwise, I sure know you can't count on the cops showing up before your body's cold.
Like I said in previous posts--I don't like guns. If there's an alternative, I'm all for it. Then we can really get them out of the hands of those who--for whatever reason--care nothing for others.
At the risk of being provocative: I can see your arguments, TB, but at this time in our history I am of the opinion that Libertarianism is tantamount to playing into the hands of a truly reactionary and tyrannical government.
Mind you, like I said, it's just my opinion--but from the outside it looks like a couple of kids fighting in the sandbox while Big Daddy mows down the rest of the neighbourhood with his tank.
Dissident wrote:
I can see your arguments, TB, but at this time in our history I am of the opinion that Libertarianism is tantamount to playing into the hands of a truly reactionary and tyrannical government.
Libertarianism? Did I miss something?