[P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class=MsoNormal][SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore"]1)[SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"] [/SPAN][/SPAN]Being with a person you love and not married
[P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class=MsoNormal][SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore"]2)[SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"] [/SPAN][/SPAN]Getting married to a person you could be with
[P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class=MsoNormal][SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore"]3)[SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"] [/SPAN][/SPAN]Marriage comes first, then the relationship
[P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class=MsoNormal][SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore"]4)[SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"] [/SPAN][/SPAN]Relationship over all else.
I could go with either 1 or 2.
Number one I guess. Marriage means nothing to me. I want to be with a person who makes me happy and wants to live the same lifestyle. That's it.
Those don't seem to be distinctly seperate categories though. I mean what is the difference exactly b/t number 1 and 4?
I got the impression it want like this
1. Great relationship, no marriage
2. Great relationship, plus marriage
3. Poor Relationship, plus marriage
4. Great Relationship, no marriage
???
I took #4 to mean relationship over all else as in family, friends, kids, money, etc..
That makes sense. Except the first three didn't address those other issues, so it's not a fair comparison.
I think that was the point. I mean not the fair comparison part but for it to be so extremely different than the others. But I guess only D would know that for sure.
I see we have some [img border=0 src="http://discoverseattle.net/forums/richedit/smileys/8.gif"]here from you two.............I will now [img border=0 src="http://discoverseattle.net/forums/richedit/smileys/8.gif"]try to clear up what i ment.
as I wrote it
[P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class=MsoNormal][SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore"]1)[SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"] [/SPAN][/SPAN]Being with a person you love and not married
[P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class=MsoNormal][SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore"]2)[SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"] [/SPAN][/SPAN]Getting married to a person you could be with
[P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class=MsoNormal][SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore"]3)[SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"] [/SPAN][/SPAN]Marriage comes first, then the relationship
[P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class=MsoNormal][SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore"]4)[SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"] [/SPAN][/SPAN]Relationship over all else.
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[P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class=MsoNormal]
I got the impression it want like this
1. Great relationship, no marriage
2. Great relationship, plus marriage
3. Poor Relationship, plus marriage
4. Great Relationship, no marriage
I took #4 to mean relationship over all else as in family, friends, kids, money, etc..
I think that was the point. I mean not the fair comparison part but for it to be so extremely different than the others. But I guess only D would know that for sure.
and that is my life right now........................[/DIV]
1 & 2... don't need to be married to have a good relationship or a bad one. be with the one you love. but should the one you love, love somebody else... a divorce will cost you hell to pay..
4 Family comes first even before the relationship... if you have family to put first.
DDD wrote:
I see we have some (http://discoverseattle.net/forums/richedit/smileys/8.gif)here from you two.............I will now (http://discoverseattle.net/forums/richedit/smileys/8.gif)try to clear up what i ment.
as I wrote it
[p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;" class="MsoNormal"][span style=""]1)[span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; lineh-eight: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"] [/span][/span]Being with a person you love and not married[/p] [p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;" class="MsoNormal"][span style=""]2)[span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; lineh-eight: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"] [/span][/span]Getting married to a person you could be with[/p] [p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;" class="MsoNormal"][span style=""]3)[span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; lineh-eight: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"] [/span][/span]Marriage comes first, then the relationship[/p] [p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;" class="MsoNormal"][span style=""]4)[span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; lineh-eight: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"] [/span][/span]Relationship over all else.[/p] [p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;" class="MsoNormal"] [/p] [p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;" class="MsoNormal"] [/p] [div]I got the impression it want like this
1. Great relationship, no marriage
2. Great relationship, plus marriage
3. Poor Relationship, plus marriage
4. Great Relationship, no marriage
[div]I took #4 to mean relationship over all else as in family, friends, kids, money, etc..
I think that was the point. I mean not the fair comparison part but for it to be so extremely different than the others. But I guess only D would know that for sure.
and that is my life right now........................[/div][/div] [div]
Ok now I'M confused. What is your life right now? #4?
[/div]
Orik wrote:
4 Family comes first even before the relationship... if you have family to put first.
I completely agree and wouldn't have it any other way.
[span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"]"4 Family comes first even before the relationship... if you have family to put first.[/span]"
I'm not sure what that means.
family before dating,before a relationship to some one not blood related...
you mother your father your grand mother your grandfather your aunts and uncles your brothers and sisters.. they come before all else.. before work, before God, before church, before a royal beer-ing, before fishing, before a night out getting laid....
The family comes first! no mater what sacrifice is made for the greater good, you must! put the survival of the family first.
When married your Wife's family Is now your family and they have to be put first above all else the Family comes first.
I can not explain it....I am the first & the last, I have no brothers, no sisters. no mother no father. If I get married my wife's family would be my family. They would be put first.
No Cookies Orik wrote:
[FONT size=2]family before dating [/FONT](yes),[FONT size=2]before a relationship[/FONT][FONT size=2] [/FONT](yes)
[FONT size=2]you mother your father your grand mother your grandfather your aunts and uncles your brothers and sisters.. they come before all else[/FONT]..(no.. I'm a mother, no person comes before that.) [FONT size=2]before work [/FONT](yes) [FONT size=2]before God [/FONT](*buzzer* No, nothing comes before God. Not even being a mother for I wouldn't be a mother if not for his intervention) [FONT size=2]before church [/FONT](yes. I don't feel a person has to attend church to be spiritually blessed) [FONT size=2]before a royal beer-ing [/FONT](yes) [FONT size=2]before fishing [/FONT](yes) [FONT size=2]before a night out getting laid [/FONT](yes)
When married your Wife's family Is now your family and they have to be put first above all else the Family comes first.
Agree and vice versa.. the man is now your family as well and he should also be made a priority.
For me, my lover would be my family and yes they'd come first. Next would come my related family (nephew, niece, dad, sister, brother, mom) <- in that order (yes I absolutely have favorites). Then would come extended family and friends. I'm an athiest, so I get to take god and church out of the equation. I'm also not a mother, so that's not in the equation either... though I agree that your children should be put first. Of course all of these people would come before work/ career, fun/ hobbies, etc.
I'm not sure if I'm buying the family first thing. This is the order for me. Husband, children, family and friends or friends and family. Their positions can possibly be interchangeable. You choose your friends, you don't choose your family. No church or god for me either Itsy.
It probably seems shocking to say husband before children, but I mean that the role parents play in childrens' lives is to teach and to guide and there is no better lesson for them, than seeing a loving couple who treat each other superbly. All that they learn about relationships, they will learn from how you treat each other. If you show them that your partner is number one, they will settle for nothing less in their relationship.
^ looks like we both value lovers (husbands) more than most.
I see we have alot of [img border=0 src="http://discoverseattle.net/forums/richedit/smileys/8.gif"]going on. I will get back here as I just stopped in been busy day.
^[span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"] looks like we both value lovers (husbands) more than most.[/span]
As it should be Itsy. (//forums/richedit/smileys/Happy/14.gif) It's hard work and an valuable life lesson for your children to see what working at a relationship and commitment looks like because goodness knows the alternatives for learning it elsewhere suck. The days of anything that resembles family values on tv are long gone and non-existent.
One of the largest contributors to the steady climb in the divorce rate is the absence of an example of commitment, patience, tolerance and understanding. Children seldom learn from what we tell them, if it isn't reinforced by what they see.
P.C. wrote:
I'm not sure if I'm buying the family first thing. This is the order for me. Husband, children, family and friends or friends and family. Their positions can possibly be interchangeable. You choose your friends, you don't choose your family. No church or god for me either Itsy.
It probably seems shocking to say husband before children, but I mean that the role parents play in childrens' lives is to teach and to guide and there is no better lesson for them, than seeing a loving couple who treat each other superbly. All that they learn about relationships, they will learn from how you treat each other. If you show them that your partner is number one, they will settle for nothing less in their relationship.
Some of my friends come before certain members of my blood family. Why? Because they have been there for me when certain family members weren't. Blood means little to me when it comes to aunts, uncles, cousins. I love my blood family because they are my family and I have forgiven them for anything and everything they've ever done to me. But they are not and will not be a priority in my life and I will not chance exposing my own child to the dangers my family bestowed upon me when I was her age.
As for husband... if I were married not even he would come before my child(ren). I was married to the father of my child and he beat me... daily. That was some of the nicer stuff that happened in that marriage. I divorced him for our survival and future well being. My child brings out a fighting spirit in me that has me alive today (literally). Why on earth would I put any man before that? Why on earth would I show my child that a man (her biological father at that) who almost kills me while she plays in next room is number one? Men can come into my life and be equal to her but no man will ever be before her.
P.C. wrote:
^[SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-WEIGHT: bold"] looks like we both value lovers (husbands) more than most.[/SPAN]
As it should be Itsy. [img border=0 src="/forums/richedit/smileys/Happy/14.gif"] It's hard work and an valuable life lesson for your children to see what working at a relationship and commitment looks like because goodness knows the alternatives for learning it elsewhere suck. The days of anything that resembles family values on tv are long gone and non-existent.
It's also valuable for your children to see a woman fight for her life as well as their own. It's valuable for your children to see that attempting overall wellness, happiness and LIFE is worth waking away no matter how hard the struggle. It's valuable for your children to see you learn, grow and prosper as a strong woman/mother. And that is can be achieved without a man/husband.
One of the largest contributors to the steady climb in the divorce rate is the absence of an example of commitment, patience, tolerance and understanding. Children seldom learn from what we tell them, if it isn't reinforced by what they see.
Commitment, patience, tolerance and understanding mean nothing when it comes solely from one person in a relationship. However, commitment, patience, tolerance and understanding can be reinforced to children by one person alone if those are the values the one person abides by.
Of course I'm not talking about such situations. I'm talking basics or ideals. About a healthy family dynamic. I'm certainly not suggesting a woman should stay in an abusive situation.
P.C. wrote:
[SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"]Of course[/SPAN] I'm not talking about such situations. I'm talking basics or ideals. About a healthy family dynamic. I'm certainly not suggesting a woman should stay in an abusive situation.
Basics.. mmm, that implies settleing. I'm not ok with that either..lol
You never struck as the type to suggest a woman stay in an abusive relationship but the way I preceve your wording is that you're suggesting a child can only be raised healthy with a boxed life. By "boxed life" I mean typical lifestyle... mother, father, sibling(s), white picket fence, little dog, apple pie baking neighbors welcoming you to your new home. Like you said just as it was once upon time on TV. Well I have a hard time believing reality was ever as seen on TV... even back then. I believe what we bestow upon others is a mix of what has been bestowed upon us, what we learned from that (if anything), how we were raised, and what position our heart lies in. Children can become morally strong adults while being raised with one parent. As I said before I would never put a man before my child(ren) and if he were a father, I would never expect him (nor would I ask) to put me before his child(ren) be them with some else or our own.
Hmm... I agree that children should without doubt come before dating.
As for abusive lovers, nobody should stay in a poor relationship, not for any reason or anyone. The way I saw it, this is sort of putting relationships/ lovers before children. Let me explain it though.... in a case where a husband was abusive to the mother only when alone and not in front of the children and was really great to the children (this does happen), the woman should put her need for a healthy relationship before her childs relationship with their father. Now I'm not suggesting she should go out and date, nor that she needs to have a lover at all, but she should never stay in an unhealthy relationship just because of how it impacts the kids.
Natasha wrote:
DDD wrote:
I see we have some [img border=0 src="http://discoverseattle.net/forums/richedit/smileys/8.gif"]here from you two.............I will now [img border=0 src="http://discoverseattle.net/forums/richedit/smileys/8.gif"]try to clear up what i ment.
as I wrote it
[P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal][SPAN]1)[SPAN style="FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; 7pt: ; lineh-eight: normal; -adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"] [/SPAN][/SPAN]Being with a person you love and not married
[P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal][SPAN]2)[SPAN style="FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; 7pt: ; lineh-eight: normal; -adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"] [/SPAN][/SPAN]Getting married to a person you could be with
[P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal][SPAN]3)[SPAN style="FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; 7pt: ; lineh-eight: normal; -adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"] [/SPAN][/SPAN]Marriage comes first, then the relationship
[P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal][SPAN]4)[SPAN style="FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; 7pt: ; lineh-eight: normal; -adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"] [/SPAN][/SPAN]Relationship over all else.
[P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal]
[P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal]
I got the impression it want like this
1. Great relationship, no marriage
2. Great relationship, plus marriage
3. Poor Relationship, plus marriage
4. Great Relationship, no marriage
I took #4 to mean relationship over all else as in family, friends, kids, money, etc..
I think that was the point. I mean not the fair comparison part but for it to be so extremely different than the others. But I guess only D would know that for sure.
and that is my life right now........................[/DIV]
[BR style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"][SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"]Ok now I'M confused. What is your life right now? #4?[/SPAN]
[/DIV]
My life right now is in a good relationship but marriage seems to be for her the only thing that counts. I think because she has never been married (lots of offers and a couple here is your ring back) I have done the marriage thing and for me the relationship over all other things is what counts.
DDD wrote:
My life right now is in a good relationship but marriage seems to be for her the only thing that counts. I think because she has never been married (lots of offers and a couple here is your ring back) I have done the marriage thing and for me the relationship over all other things is what counts.
I agree. Entering into marriage wont equal happiness. Some people get divorced shortly after marrying so why mess up a good thing. I mean if it's what you both want, that's one thing. But marriage is huge and shouldn't entered into by guilt or ultimatums.
Itsy Bitsy wrote:
Hmm... I agree that children should without doubt come before dating.
As for abusive lovers, nobody should stay in a poor relationship, not for any reason or anyone. The way I saw it, this is sort of putting relationships/ lovers before children. Let me explain it though.... in a case where a husband was abusive to the mother only when alone and not in front of the children and was really great to the children (this does happen), the woman should put her need for a healthy relationship before her childs relationship with their father. Now I'm not suggesting she should go out and date, nor that she needs to have a lover at all, but she should never stay in an unhealthy relationship just because of how it impacts the kids. [/DIV]
Just because abuse doens't happen right where the children can see it with their own eyes, doens't mean they don't know what's going on. Adults don't give children the credit they deserve. Children are more aware of what's going than we think they are. Children can benefit from a good male figure... perferrably the father of that child(ren). No one can deny that. If abuse was happening in a way that a woman could fool even herself into believing the child(ren) didn't know about it and the husband/father was great to the children, I see no harm in her trying to stay with him. However, when a beating stops because a crying child stands in front of the mother (that does happen) then it's just a bad situation for everyone involved. When life has gotten to a point where all you have is your child(ren) and all they have is you, making those children feel as if they've replaced by a man would be a huge step backwards in all of your progress.
Basics.. mmm, that implies settleing. I'm not ok with that either..lol
You never struck as the type to suggest a woman stay in an abusive relationship but the way I preceve your wording is that you're suggesting a child can only be raised healthy with a boxed life. By "boxed life" I mean typical lifestyle... mother, father, sibling(s), white picket fence, little dog, apple pie baking neighbors welcoming you to your new home. Like you said just as it was once upon time on TV. Well I have a hard time believing reality was ever as seen on TV... even back then. I believe what we bestow upon others is a mix of what has been bestowed upon us, what we learned from that (if anything), how we were raised, and what position our heart lies in. Children can become morally strong adults while being raised with one parent. As I said before I would never put a man before my child(ren) and if he were a father, I would never expect him (nor would I ask) to put me before his child(ren) be them with some else or our own.
[span style="font-weight: normal;"]Whooooaaa. [/span] [span style="font-weight: normal;"]This has gone off in a strange direction. Maybe I'm not wording it well. [/span](//richedit/smileys/Happy/4.gif)[span style="font-weight: normal;"][/span][br style="font-weight: normal;"][br style="font-weight: normal;"][span style="font-weight: normal;"] But I'm not talking about abusive relationships. Or picket fences or 'settling' and I'm definitely not talking about dating. I am talking about a couple, with children, in a healthy relationship. They need to present a united front in rearing children. [/span][br style="font-weight: normal;"][span style="font-weight: normal;"] If a child comes to their parents for something, that they are not in agreement on, they need to come together on a decision. If dad's saying yes, and mom is saying no, they need to sort it out before a decision is given to the child. Should it become an issue of contention (in front of the children) and ONE of the parents over-rides the other, they will not only learn who they can manipulate, they have taken a place in the family that they shouldn't. Dad absolutely has to respect the mother's decision first. [/span][br style="font-weight: normal;"][br style="font-weight: normal;"][span style="font-weight: normal;"]I maintain that children learn about relationships from example, which isn't to say we can't raise healthy well adjusted children alone.[/span]
P.C. wrote:
[SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal"] If a child comes to their parents for something, that they are not in agreement on, they need to come together on a decision. If dad's saying yes, and mom is saying no, they need to sort it out before a decision is given to the child. Should it become an issue of contention (in front of the children) and ONE of the parents over-rides the other, they will not only learn who they can manipulate, they have taken a place in the family that they shouldn't. Dad absolutely has to respect the mother's decision first. [/SPAN][BR style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal"][BR style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal"][SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal"]I maintain that children learn about relationships from example, which isn't to say we can't raise healthy well adjusted children alone.[/SPAN]
lol.. ok, that (imo) is worded in a more clear manner without any confusing lines =) If THAT is the situation, then yes, I totally agree. However, these days that type of family setting is less typical.
Now I'm trying to remember who started this thread. Whoever did, we should beat his bottom blue for not being more exact with his original posts... lol
Hahahahaaa. I think it was about how we want to be remembered when we're dead.
I just decided I want to be remembered for being clear and succinct. (//forums/richedit/smileys/Happy/4.gif)
Cripes, wrong thread. (//forums/richedit/smileys/Happy/12.gif)
P.C. wrote:
Hahahahaaa. I think it was about how we want to be remembered when we're dead............LOL
I just decided I want to be remembered for being clear and succinct. [img border=0 src="/forums/richedit/smileys/Happy/4.gif"] ........OK
Now I'm trying to remember who started this thread. Whoever did, we should beat his bottom blue for not being more exact with his original posts... lol
Please do
I was confusing this thread with the "How would you like...." thread.
P.C. wrote:
I was confusing this thread with the "How would you like...." thread.
yes you are.......................and How would you like
Natasha wrote:
Just because abuse doens't happen right where the children can see it with their own eyes, doens't mean they don't know what's going on. Adults don't give children the credit they deserve. Children are more aware of what's going than we think they are. Children can benefit from a good male figure... perferrably the father of that child(ren). No one can deny that. If abuse was happening in a way that a woman could fool even herself into believing the child(ren) didn't know about it and the husband/father was great to the children, I see no harm in her trying to stay with him. However, when a beating stops because a crying child stands in front of the mother (that does happen) then it's just a bad situation for everyone involved. When life has gotten to a point where all you have is your child(ren) and all they have is you, making those children feel as if they've replaced by a man would be a huge step backwards in all of your progress.
I disagree. There is plenty of harm in her staying with him.
Itsy Bitsy wrote:
Natasha wrote:
Just because abuse doens't happen right where the children can see it with their own eyes, doens't mean they don't know what's going on. Adults don't give children the credit they deserve. Children are more aware of what's going than we think they are. Children can benefit from a good male figure... perferrably the father of that child(ren). No one can deny that. If abuse was happening in a way that a woman could fool even herself into believing the child(ren) didn't know about it and the husband/father was great to the children, I see no harm in her trying to stay with him. However, when a beating stops because a crying child stands in front of the mother (that does happen) then it's just a bad situation for everyone involved. When life has gotten to a point where all you have is your child(ren) and all they have is you, making those children feel as if they've replaced by a man would be a huge step backwards in all of your progress.
I disagree. There is plenty of harm in her staying with him.
[/DIV]
I agree the f*cker needs his dick cut off and stuffed up his ass and his balls shoved down his throat.
No person should hit
I disagree just a little bit DDD sometimes there is a reason to hit some one else... No person should hit some one out of anger. I do not think someone should strike another because they can. I do think that In the case of saving your own life or some one Else's life, then and only then, may the use of force be utilized...
Striking someone out of self defense is an entirely different matter and perfectly acceptable in my book.
Example 1.
If a woman is coming at you with a knife and intends to gut you like a fish, because
A. you said something bad to her
B. any other unjustified reason,
I think it is perfectible acceptable in a situation like this to use a closed handed strike, to
1. disarm her
2. regain control in the fastest possible manner.
That is one of the very few situations, I think is acceptable where a male may strike a woman. It may not be the only situation that arises, but it is only one of a few examples where striking a woman by a male may be considered acceptable.
DDD wrote:
No person should hit[/DIV]
Agree.
Little Fish wrote:
No person should hit some one out of anger.
You can't fairly say that. Even in self defense, a part of you is angry and you would most certain hit someone to defend yourself.
Example 1.
If a woman is coming at you with a knife and intends to gut you like a fish, because
A. you said something bad to her
B. any other unjustified reason,
I think it is perfectible acceptable in a situation like this to use a closed handed strike, to
1. disarm her
2. regain control in the fastest possible manner.
The only way that would be acceptable (imo) is if it were a random woman in a freak situation. But if this a woman you know and/or are in a relationship with... then NO it's still not ok to hit her. The reason I feel this way is because as her mate you should know how she handles anger and what her triggers are. This being such, you have the option of
1) shutting the f*ck up
2) walking away til you both calm down
[BR style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"][SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"]
[/SPAN] [SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"]
[/SPAN]
Any person is capable of snapping and losing it even a couple in a relationship.
Male and female on Robson street had been using some chemicals that reacted badly, the male got violent flipped out and took on a car, the car full of young frightened teens, this hulk of a male (6'2 medium to large muscular build approximately 225 - 250 Lbs
He put his fist through the car window, rocking the car side to side. Blood flowing down his hands he kept lashing out at random, the public walking past and the poor teens trapped in the car, this man had snapped... It took 4 of us to take him down AND 2 PAIRS OF HANDCUFFS TO RESTRAIN HIM. He broke the first pair put on him, I have never seen it done before, but I did that night.
The woman did not take kindly to her man being arrested and went off on the Officers arresting him. calming and settling her down was not that difficult. The problems arose a little time later, She had a knife and had gone off the dee pend she has slashed her wrist open from thumb to elbow.
Sadly once she had been settled down and sat down, none of the officers on the scene paid any attention to the young lass, she took advantage of the time to attempt suicide or to just cry for help in a strange way. She was taken in to police custody and then to the hospital for the help she needed, as for the man he was taken to hospital for assessment, then later to the police station for charges of assault, vandalism and a couple of others. The girl was never charged.
I have seen situations where a couple have lashed out at each other. Had it been the girl who had snapped and not the guy and if she had gone after him with a knife.
What you are saying Natasha is he should not strike her to defend himself ?
I have to concede in most relationships the chances of that happened are slim..
Situation B
MALE A. Has been f*cking his wife's, younger sister and the wife goes after him with a knife with the intention of killing him.. He strikes her once knocking her cold...
Who is at fault and what charges do you press ?
Situation C
Wife has been drinking and is intoxicated. Husband comes home from work, Wife demands more money, so she can go buy more alcohol, husband refuses to give her anymore money till she sobers up...
Wife proceeds to beat her husband with a stick. Should the man stand there and take it? Should he run away? Should he strike his wife and take the stick from her? Should he leave the house & call 911 then press charges of assault against his wife?
In situation C Husband was in an abusive relationship, He was constantly being beaten by his wife. He finally got up the nerve and he left her. There are homes for physically abused women to run to but where does an abused man go to? This is something not talked of often, it does occur & more often than people realize.
Situation C is a close personal friend of mine... I have never known him to to even harm a fly, he is one of the very few people in my life I have ever known that is a truly none violent person and lived his life accordingly. Sadly he was trapped in an abusive relationship for years.
Thankfully he is not in that relationship anymore. Sadly the courts saw fit to give his ex wife child custody. It took a few more years & many court battles before the courts revoked her custody rights. The male now has custody rights, his children are strong and & healthy. His new wife is adorable and I think he has finally hit the jackpot this time.
Situation A. The male was a good friend of mine & I hated having to place him under arrest that arrest was My first step away from the brother hood of the street I grew up with and was a part of. It shames me that I had to arrest, a Man I had looked up to. I had, had respect for him before that day, but none there after.
I could not let him hurt those teens in the car... He really was not in his right mind.. I had asked him to stand down, I had asked him to step away, I asked him to not make me have to arrest him, He did not even recognize me, I am not even sure if he was capable of cognizant thought, looking into his blood shot glassy eyes, I was afraid one of the very few times in my life, that I was in fear for my safety.
Thankfully my back up arrived and I was not forced to try to take him down alone, I f I had tried to take him down alone I probably would of had to resort to lethal force If the situation turned badly And with the size of **** would have stood at least a 90% chance he would of killed me, If I had tried to take him down alone... He stands head and shoulders above me, at that time He even weighed more than I did. He was a couple of years older than me & he had taught most of the martial arts we knew..
no Natasha Any person is capable of losing it and any person could end up in a situation where they have just a split second to decide what course of action to take.. hopefully it never occurs but the sad truth is that it does.. the saddest part of all, is the women who will continue to go home to an abusive spouse.. lets not forget all the men who will do the same.. worst of all are the children who get caught in the middle...
Our world is not a perfect society, sadly to many people will resort to violence first and all else second. We are a horribly violent species or a violent plague if you prefer the matrix stand point.. A Virus, a scourge on this planet..
Gone Fishing C U Tue. wrote:
Any person is capable of snapping and losing it even a couple in a relationship.
Male and female on Robson street had been using some chemicals that reacted badly, the male got violent flipped out and took on a car, the car full of young frightened teens, this hulk of a male (6'2 medium to large muscular build approximately 225 - 250 Lbs
He put his fist through the car window, rocking the car side to side. Blood flowing down his hands he kept lashing out at random, the public walking past and the poor teens trapped in the car, this man had snapped... It took 4 of us to take him down AND 2 PAIRS OF HANDCUFFS TO RESTRAIN HIM. He broke the first pair put on him, I have never seen it done before, but I did that night.
The woman did not take kindly to her man being arrested and went off on the Officers arresting him. calming and settling her down was not that difficult. The problems arose a little time later, She had a knife and had gone off the dee pend she has slashed her wrist open from thumb to elbow.
Sadly once she had been settled down and sat down, none of the officers on the scene paid any attention to the young lass, she took advantage of the time to attempt suicide or to just cry for help in a strange way. She was taken in to police custody and then to the hospital for the help she needed, as for the man he was taken to hospital for assessment, then later to the police station for charges of assault, vandalism and a couple of others. The girl was never charged.
I have seen situations where a couple have lashed out at each other. Had it been the girl who had snapped and not the guy and if she had gone after him with a knife.
What you are saying Natasha is he should not strike her to defend himself ?
I have to concede in most relationships the chances of that happened are slim..
Situation B
MALE A. Has been f*cking his wife's, younger sister and the wife goes after him with a knife with the intention of killing him.. He strikes her once knocking her cold...
Who is at fault and what charges do you press ?
Situation C
Wife has been drinking and is intoxicated. Husband comes home from work, Wife demands more money, so she can go buy more alcohol, husband refuses to give her anymore money till she sobers up...
Wife proceeds to beat her husband with a stick. Should the man stand there and take it? Should he run away? Should he strike his wife and take the stick from her? Should he leave the house & call 911 then press charges of assault against his wife?
In situation C Husband was in an abusive relationship, He was constantly being beaten by his wife. He finally got up the nerve and he left her. There are homes for physically abused women to run to but where does an abused man go to? This is something not talked of often, it does occur & more often than people realize.
Situation C is a close personal friend of mine... I have never known him to to even harm a fly, he is one of the very few people in my life I have ever known that is a truly none violent person and lived his life accordingly. Sadly he was trapped in an abusive relationship for years.
Thankfully he is not in that relationship anymore. Sadly the courts saw fit to give his ex wife child custody. It took a few more years & many court battles before the courts revoked her custody rights. The male now has custody rights, his children are strong and & healthy. His new wife is adorable and I think he has finally hit the jackpot this time.
Situation A. The male was a good friend of mine & I hated having to place him under arrest that arrest was My first step away from the brother hood of the street I grew up with and was a part of. It shames me that I had to arrest, a Man I had looked up to. I had, had respect for him before that day, but none there after.
I could not let him hurt those teens in the car... He really was not in his right mind.. I had asked him to stand down, I had asked him to step away, I asked him to not make me have to arrest him, He did not even recognize me, I am not even sure if he was capable of cognizant thought, looking into his blood shot glassy eyes, I was afraid one of the very few times in my life, that I was in fear for my safety.
Thankfully my back up arrived and I was not forced to try to take him down alone, I f I had tried to take him down alone I probably would of had to resort to lethal force If the situation turned badly And with the size of **** would have stood at least a 90% chance he would of killed me, If I had tried to take him down alone... He stands head and shoulders above me, at that time He even weighed more than I did. He was a couple of years older than me & he had taught most of the martial arts we knew..
no Natasha Any person is capable of losing it and any person could end up in a situation where they have just a split second to decide what course of action to take.. hopefully it never occurs but the sad truth is that it does.. the saddest part of all, is the women who will continue to go home to an abusive spouse.. lets not forget all the men who will do the same.. worst of all are the children who get caught in the middle...
Our world is not a perfect society, sadly to many people will resort to violence first and all else second. We are a horribly violent species or a violent plague if you prefer the matrix stand point.. A Virus, a scourge on this planet..
Ok first of all. I'm pressed for time so I'm not even going to attempt to read all that... sorry. I'll try to come back and read it all later. I will reply to the part I bolded (only because I saw my name as I was skimming through it) =)
Yes, any type of person is capable of loosing it at any given time. However, we were talking about relationships. Not random idiocracy at it's worst. And I'm pretty sure what got all this started was some females saying they would put a man first. Meaning above their children AND themselves. If a woman leaves an abusive relationship, then guess what? She did not put her man first. She put herself and her child(ren) first... as it should be. If you really do have that "Leave it to Beaver" lifestyle, then sure I can see the man coming first. but if you really think about it all this talk of men being first and what not is a waste of time. The gay/lesbian community is becomming more open and socially acceptable so many homes/relationships aren't so typical these days anyway. People can live different types of lifestyles while maintaining respect and equality.
When it comes to hitting women. Unless you're a woman yourself, it's never ok. Now that doesn't mean you can't protect yourself as a man. But lets face it, most women can be easily overpowered by men. So why close handed hit her? Why not push her? Why not twist her arm? Why not just leave? No one said as a man you have to stay there. Most people can see a bad situation brewing up but most stay right there pushing buttons. The only I would ever say it's ok for a man to hit a woman is if his immediate life is in danger. Lets face it though, she's a woman. If you ever piss a woman so bad she wants to kill you, she'll wait til you're asleep and do it then.
Well mister, you made me reply and it took longer than I expected...lol I think Orik is rubbing off on me ;) I guess we'll see where this leads on Tuesday... have a safe and fun fishing trip =)
Hmm, who said they would put men before themselves?
As for putting men before others, I meant to put a positive loving relationship before others, not to put the man you're with despite how he treats you before others. I think it's important that you are healthy and happy with your relationship status (even it it means being single) before even considering having children. If you do not need a companion, that is fine. It is better to be alone (or be a single parent) than to be with someone who doesn't make you happy just because they want to raise kids with you. I don't think anyone should ever stay with someone "for the children".
Well said Itsy. (//forums/richedit/smileys/Happy/14.gif)
If a person had the ability to see past the simple statement about putting your mate #1, they would also see that in a healthy relationship, you would be #1 in their eyes. Nobody is giving more than they are getting. Selfless vision is a two way street. When such a couple has children, together, their common interest and investment would be their children. Funny how everyone first hears that there is some kind of unrealistic sacrifice involved.
Oh, it was me who said that, and I stick by it. (//forums/richedit/smileys/Happy/12.gif)
And not men, just 'my' man. (//richedit/smileys/Happy/12.gif)
A person can't say, I would put a man first, then say, except when he's being abusive, as that's not putting a man first. It's putting yourself and your children first (as it should be). Saying "equality is the way to go" is not putting a man first either. He is your equal in the decision making process and every other way (as it should be). But what about in a life saving process? Who do you save? Your man or your child? From the day I found out I was pregnant, my answer has always been my child and it will always remain that way.
Itsy Bitsy wrote:
I don't think anyone should ever stay with someone "for the children".[/DIV]
Agree, sadly lots of people (of both genders) do just that. A friend of mine told me his wife said to him their son was a mistake. Because of that she doesn't take care of him. The boy gets taken care of by my friend and the boys grandmother. My friend and the mom are still together, he just can't depend on her for anything when it comes to the child. When I asked why he stays with her. He said "because that's his mom". He says if he divorces her, the boy and her will never see each other. She's nothing but poison in that boys life anyway so boot her out is what I say. Better for the boy to be raised with a wonderful father only. A horrible mother will only complicate his life in the future. It's a shame too as he's such cute, sweet, smart kid =) I'd looove the little bugger to be mine =)
[P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal]OK let me clear up what I said. One should not hit a person BUT if you need to defend yourself that is totally different and you should do that by any means possible in order to do that.
[P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal][?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /][o:p] [/o:p]
[P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal]I for one would not hit unless hit fist and even then that would more than likely be an impulse reaction and not a consciences decision by me – unless above.
[P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal][o:p] [/o:p]
[P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal]Think about it you're with your girlfriend or wife.....etc... and this person is someone you say you love but you would hurt them? Does not add up in my books.
I don't know why the abusive spouse thing keeps popping into this. As I've said from the beginning, I am talking about a healthy family. I am talking about the valuable lessons a child learns to see his father treating his mother with ultimate respect....she is #1.....and of course vice versa. If that's not equality, I don't think I have any idea what that means then.
And now the life saving process. Good grief. That's a no brainer.
Is it that difficult to see the simplicity of the concept ?
P.C. wrote:
I don't know why the abusive spouse thing keeps popping into this. As I've said from the beginning, I am talking about a healthy family. I am talking about the valuable lessons a child learns to see his father treating his mother with ultimate respect....she is #1.....and of course vice versa. If that's not equality, I don't think I have any idea what that means then.
[/p] [p style="font-weight: bold;"]Is there realy such a thing anymore and was there EVER. I say no as all pepole have issues just some are hidden better than others and some deal with them better and then some are a**holes and hit[/p] [p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"][span style=""] [/span] [/p] [/p] And now the life saving process. Good grief. That's a no brainer.
Is it that difficult to see the simplicity of the concept ?
Nope real simply [/p]
[span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"]Is there realy such a thing anymore and was there EVER. I say no as all pepole have issues just some are hidden better than others and some deal with them better and then some are a**holes and hit[/span]
There's that hitting thing again. What's with the hitting thing ?
"Is there really such a thing". Absolutely.
"Was there such a thing". Absolutely.
I know a ton of people who adore each other. And even when they disagree, they work it out civilly. They would never dream of calling each other names or belittling each other in front of their children. They show respect to each other even when they don't agree. I'm shocked to hear how foreign this sounds.
I don't know why we keep discussing this as a husband/wife scenerio. As I've said before, the gay/lesbian community is becoming more open and socially acceptable. Relationships/marriages can consist of M/M or F/F and still be considered healthy or even face the same trials as straight relationships/marriages (hitting included).
Idk I guess some people would rather think of life as bubble gum and rainbows =) [/DIV]
^ true, we should probably be addressing other lifestyles and sexualities, etc as well. I guess we are just discussing the more common one because it's easier. We're lazy. :)
IF we're still going to talk about it. I'm about all talked out on this issue.
[div style="width: 100%;"] [div style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"]I don't know why we keep discussing this as a husband/wife scenerio. As I've said before, the gay/lesbian community is becoming more open and socially acceptable. Relationships/marriages can consist of M/M or F/F and still be considered healthy or even face the same trials as straight relationships/marriages (hitting included).[/div] [div style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"]
[span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"]Idk I guess some people would rather think of life as bubble gum and rainbows =) [/span]
Holy cripes ! OK....let me see if I can make this any simpler. Whoever is in the parental role had better set a good example and treat each other with utmost respect, because that is how how children learn about relationships. And no....no hitting included. That's another subject altogether. Hitters never WERE included in the "treat your partner exquisitely" comment.
It's a simple notion...it applies to all concerned...it's not about who is better parents...it is not about treating an abuser like he is number one....it is not about excluding anyone who is in the role of parent with the exception of hitters....who belong somewhere else. I don't think we could possibly dissect this any further before we are discussing a different topic.
I never realized how complicated something so simple could be.
[/div][/div]
It's not about husband and wife....it's about parenting.
LOL.. ok P.C. you can have the last word.... on this thread =P
(//forums/richedit/smileys/Happy/4.gif) Yeayyyyyyy.
Do you have kids Natasha ?
P.C. wrote:
[img border=0 src="/forums/richedit/smileys/Happy/4.gif"] Yeayyyyyyy.
lol... I'll get you on the real LW thread though =P
and yes ma'am I'm a mother as well. Was the best thing that ever happened to me =)
Where's "Gone fishing til Tues"? Shouldn't he be back by now? I hope he didn't get used as bait =D
Natasha wrote:
LOL.. ok P.C. you can have the last word.... on this thread =P [/DIV]
Yuppers P.C. can have the LW here but I still want to hit the person who started this thread [img border=0 src="http://discoverseattle.net/forums/richedit/smileys/9.gif"]
Well, at the risk of sounding uppity, the concept can't be argued. The original delivery may have been poor, but the message is sound. At least for those who could see it for what it was. (//forums/richedit/smileys/Happy/14.gif)