Defend America's Democracy

[Adam_Fulford]

Los Angeles Times article about the vindictive persecution of whistleblower hero of American democracy Stephen Heller:[/DIV][A href="vny!://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics/socal/la-me-diebold22feb22,0,33600.story?coll=la-news-politics-local"]vny!://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics/socal/la-me-diebold22feb22,0,33600.story?coll=la-news-politics-local[/A]

[Witch]

Adam_Fulford wrote:
The LA District Attorney is going after Stephen Heller, who was the whistleblower who presented the evidence that allowed California to succesfully sue Diebold, yet isn't going after Diebold that knowingly broke California law and compromised the integrity of American democracy.  Witch, you decide.[/DIV]_____________________________________________________________
 I'm not going to decide. I don't have enough corroborated unbiased information to make an informed decision. That's the point I'm trying to make here.

Just like the letter. You say she wrote it, but did she really? There's no signature. It's not on an official site. Anyone could have typed it up. And it doesn't support the original post at all. Yet you pull it out as if it does.

[Witch]

Adam_Fulford wrote:
Los Angeles Times article about the vindictive persecution of whistleblower hero of American democracy Stephen Heller:[/DIV][A href="vny!://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics/socal/la-me-diebold22feb22,0,33600.story?coll=la-news-politics-local"]vny!://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics/socal/la-me-diebold22feb22,0,33600.story?coll=la-news-politics-local[/A]__________________________________________________________________

Well this is a start. Unfortunately it also illustrates why we have to be careful of unbiased sources.

You are characterising this article as if it reveals "the vindictive persecution of whistleblower hero of American democracy Stephen Heller", as if it supports your conjecture entirely. In fact, it does no such thing.

What it does relate is a story about the prosecution of a person who is accused of stealing documents. Now if Heller did so, even in the course of being a whistleblower, then he broke the law. There is no evidence that the prosecution is malicious, and there is even a hint that convictions are rare.

Sandi Gibbons, spokeswoman for the Los Angeles County district attorney's office, refused to call Heller a "whistle-blower."

"We call him a defendant," she said. "He's accused of breaking the law.... If we feel that the evidence shows beyond a reasonable doubt in our minds that a crime has been committed, it's our job as a criminal prosecutor to file a case."

This is certainly a looooooong way from the picture of vicious, malicious bullying you paint in your posts. That in itself reveals the problem. When you choose to pepper a story with propagandic color, like "whistleblower hero of American democracy", it's painfully clear that the story your giving is highly unlikely to be an unbiased account.

You have an agenda Adam, and that's fine. You simply have to remember that not everyone shares your agenda. Not everyone shares your "mission". People like me need to see the whole story, and we realise that we're not going to get it from people who fervently believe one side with almost religious zeal. We understand that the articles you use are going to be either, written by people who are also biased, unreliable as to their authenticity, or if they are genuine, misinterpreted by you in order to support that which you simply must believe. That last case is very well illustrated by your interpretation of the LA Times article.




 

[Adam_Fulford]

Witch, are in a state of denial against an overwhelming sea of evidence, and come across as rooting against the facts, for the sake of argument.

  [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00" color=#000000]MORE VINDICTIVE ACTIONS BY FASCISTS AGAINST HONEST AMERICANS[/FONT]

[SPAN class=updatehead][FONT color=#ff0000][FONT color=#000000 size=1]PERMISSION TO REPRINT GRANTED, MUST INCLUDE LINK TO [/FONT][A href="vny!://www.blackboxvoting.org/" target=_blank][FONT size=1]vny!://www.blackboxvoting.org[/FONT][/A][FONT color=#000000] [/FONT][/FONT][/SPAN][/DIV][SPAN class=updatehead][FONT face=Verdana color=#ff0000][/FONT][/SPAN] [/DIV][SPAN class=updatehead][FONT face=Verdana color=#ff0000]3-3-06: While Florida vindicates Ion Sancho, Jeb Bush threatens Sancho's job[/FONT][/SPAN]

"You could steal the election and no one would ever know," Leon County (FL) supervisor of elections Ion Sancho says.

Sancho arranged for an independent study by Black Box Voting with security experts Harri Hursti and Dr. Herbert Thompson, discovering critical security flaws in the Diebold voting system. These flaws were confirmed in a study ordered by the California Secretary of state. Today the state of Florida issued a [A href="vny!://www.bbvforums.org/cgi-bin/forums/board-auth.cgi?file=/17335/Technical_Advisory_3-3-06-19497.doc&type=application/msword" target=_blank]Technical Advisory[/A] to all Supervisors of Elections based on these findings.

And today, Sancho received a letter from Florida Gov. Jeb Bush and Sec. State Sue Cobb, threatening action by the state of Florida to take over Leon County elections.
[A href="vny!://www.bbvforums.org/cgi-bin/forums/board-auth.cgi?file=/17335/sancho-mar3-06-19493.pdf&type=application/pdf" target=_blank](Link: Letter from Jeb Bush/Sue Cobb to Sancho)[/A]

Ion Sancho is one of the most highly respected elections officials in the nation. He stood up to the state of Florida, refusing to cooperate with purging voters who are not felons from the voters list, working from lists provided by the state of Florida erroneously claiming they were felons.
[A href="vny!://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/09/144240" target=_blank]Felon Disenfranchisement: Purging the Minority Vote[/A]

It is Sancho who was chosen to lead the Florida hand count in the contentious 2000 Bush v. Gore race. The U.S. Supreme Court nixed the hand count.
[A href="vny!://www.courttv.com/news/decision_2000/120900_ap.html" target=_blank]Scarcely begun, recounts halted in 5-4 U.S. Supreme Court ruling[/A]

And it is Sancho who has provided the most convincing evidence of the utter failure of both the federal testing labs and Florida's state voting machine testing. Neither the federal labs caught the defects which are referred to in the [A href="vny!://www.blackboxvoting.org/BBVreport.pdf" target=_blank]Hursti Report[/A] as "the mother of all security holes" and "an unlockable revolving door."

[FONT color=#ff0000]Diebold knew[/FONT]

After the findings in Leon County were published in May 2005, Diebold responded by attacking and smearing the messenger (Ion Sancho), denying the problem instead of fixing the system.
[A href="vny!://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/2197/10535.html" target=_blank]Diebold letters to officials[/A]

Instead of warning other elections officials so they could improve security by taking countermeasures, Diebold sent hundreds of letters to elections officials throughout the U.S. smearing Sancho for being "irresponsible" and denying that the flaws exist.

Diebold's denials didn't work in Pennsylvania. The state of Pennsylvania, after independent testing by Carnegie-Mellon computer scientist Michael Shamos, refused to certify the system.
[A href="vny!://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/1954/15688.html" target=_blank]Pennsylvania declines some Diebold...[/A]

The state of California commissioned its own independent study ([A href="vny!://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/1954/15688.html?1136067478" target=_blank]Berkeley Report)[/A], which confirmed the results from Leon County:
[/DIV][BLOCKQUOTE][HR SIZE=0][!-quote-!]quote: [FONT color=#0000ff]"Harri Hursti's attack does work: Mr. Hursti's attack on the AV-OS is definitely real. He was indeed able to change the election results by doing nothing more than modifying the contents of a memory card. He needed no passwords, no cryptographic keys, and no access to any other part of the voting system, including the GEMS election management server."

...

"Memory card attacks are a real threat: We determined that anyone who has access to a memory card of the AV-OS, and can tamper it (i.e. modify its contents), and can have the modified cards used in a voting machine during election, can indeed modify the election results from that machine in a number of ways. The fact that the the results are incorrect cannot be detected except by a recount of the original paper ballots."

...

"Successful attacks can only be detected by examining the paper ballots: There would be no way to know that any of these attacks occurred; the canvass procedure would not detect any anomalies, and would just produce incorrect results. The only way to detect and correct the problem would be by recount of the original paper ballots, e.g. during the 1 percent manual recount."[/FONT][!-/quote-!] [HR SIZE=0][/BLOCKQUOTE]

Diebold issued written statements to the [A href="vny!://www.bbvdocs.org/diebold/AZ-sos-moreland.pdf" target=_blank]Arizona Secretary of State[/A] and to [A href="vny!://www.bbvdocs.org/diebold/plainvanillaDiebold.pdf" target=_blank]elections officials[/A] throughout America claiming that passwords were needed, and also that the vulnerabilities did not exist.

Meanwhile, Ion Sancho has been blackballed by the vendors.

[FONT color=#ff0000]Three vendors make it impossible to buy[/FONT]

Diebold punished Leon County elections chief Ion Sancho by breaching its contract, refusing to provide upgrades that Leon County had already paid for. Without the upgrades, Leon County could not stay HAVA compliant.

When Sancho went to Election Systems & Software (ES&S) for a replacement system, ES&S led him on for weeks, then on the eve of the Florida deadline, refused to sell to him.

Sancho went to the only remaining authorized vendor, Sequoia Voting Systems (a system that revealed over 100,000 errors in its voting system computer logs during the 2004 presidential election), but Sequoia stalled the talks and failed to provide Sancho with an offer.

The companies seem to be tag-teaming with the state of Florida, which has given Sancho just a few weeks to purchase a system. If all three companies stall just long enough, they can effectively oust Sancho.

[FONT color=#ff0000]The state of Florida knew[/FONT]

In July 2005, Black Box Voting sent a [A href="vny!://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/2197/10300.html" target=_blank]certified copy of the Hursti Report[/A] to then-Florida secretary of state Glenda Hood and to then-Florida voting system chief, Paul Craft. In addition, Paul Craft received a [A href="vny!://bbvdocs.org/reports/rivest.pdf" target=_blank]letter from world-renowned M.I.T. security expert Ronald Rivest[/A] warning that the Hursti findings were a serious concern.

Yet the state of Florida did no additional study or testing. Glenda Hood and Paul Craft [A href="vny!://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/1954/13042.html" target=_blank]resigned suddenly[/A] in November 2005, with Sue Cobb and David Drury taking over -- but no studies of the critical security flaw identified in Leon County were ordered by either the former or the current secretary of state, nor were any studies done by either voting system examiner.

The problem was first reported by Black Box Voting in [A href="vny!://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/1954/5921.html" target=_blank]May 2005[/A], with [A href="vny!://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/1954/6805.html" target=_blank]formal reports[/A] going out by certified mail in July 2005. After no action by Florida officials, a [A href="vny!://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/1954/15595.html" target=_blank]full fledged demonstration[/A] of hacking the election in Leon County took place on Dec. 13, 2005

At this time, Gov. Jeb Bush promised to look into the problem, but commissioned no studies and did nothing to decertify the system after its flaws were confirmed in other states.

[FONT color=#ff0000]Volunteers ready and willing to hand count Leon County; Florida says it's against the law[/FONT]

When news of Leon County's blackballing spread across the nation, volunteers from as far away as New Hampshire and Texas began plans to step in and hand-count the next two Leon County elections.

Jeb Bush isn't having any part of that: No hand counts can take place in Florida. It's the law.

The state of Florida has not only continued to demand that officials purchase unauditable paperless touch-screens, but actually accelerated the schedule. Whereas most states require HAVA-compliant systems by the first federal election in 2006, Florida moved the compliance date up to January 2006.

Florida has declined to certify the AutoMark, a device that enables election supervisors to comply with a Help America Vote Act (HAVA) mandate for the disabled, forcing county officials to use only paperless touch-screen machines for disabled voters.

[FONT color=#ff0000]Florida missing a key protection for county election officials[/FONT]

Privatization of public necessities into the hands of for-profit companies does not work unless certain safeguards are in place. In Florida, voting system suppliers must be authorized by the state. The state has approved only three suppliers.

There are other industries which are limited to a few suppliers -- power companies, telecommunications providers, cable networks. However, in order to become authorized suppliers these vendors MUST agree to sell to willing buyers.

In other words, "You can only buy from this limited pool of vendors, but they, in turn, MUST sell to you."

The business model doesn't work if you don't force the limited supplier pool to sell to willing buyers. Florida's failure to properly structure the elections business model has created an impossible situation in Leon County.

Requiring vendors to sell to willing buyers is a KEY SAFEGUARD in cases where the government limits the supplier pool for a public necessity.

- The state of Florida failed in its duty to ensure secure voting systems. It's testing failed to spot critical security flaws.

- The state of Florida failed to enact a provision requiring voting system supplier to sell to willing buyers, while at the same time, limiting the pool of suppliers to just three vendors who can refuse service at will.

- Diebold Election Systems failed to warn its customers of known security problems, denied the problems, and punished the county elections official who discovered the problem by refusing to perform on its paid-in-advance contract.

[FONT color=#ff0000]According to the Associated Press, Sancho plans to fight![/FONT]

"We will be talking to our lawyers over the weekend," Sancho said. "Somebody is going to pay for it."

[A href="vny!://www.gainesville.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=community" target=_blank]State orders security safeguards for voting machines[/A]

* * * * *

[FONT size=-2]PERMISSION TO REPRINT GRANTED, MUST INCLUDE LINK TO [A href="vny!://www.blackboxvoting.org/" target=_blank]vny!://www.blackboxvoting.org[/A][/FONT]

[/DIV]

[Adam_Fulford]

[P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"][SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"][A href="vny!://www.washingtonpost.com/wp%20dyn/content/graphic/2006/03/16/GR2006031600213.html"]vny!://www.washingtonpost.com/wpdyn/content/graphic/2006/03/16/GR2006031600213.html[/A] [?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /][o:p][/o:p][/SPAN]

[P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"] [o:p][/o:p]

[H1 style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: auto 0in"][SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"]How To Steal an Election[o:p][/o:p][/SPAN][/H1][H2 style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"][SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 18.0pt"]It's easier to rig an electronic voting machine than a Las Vegas slot machine, says University of Pennsylvania visiting professor Steve Freeman. That's because Vegas slots are better monitored and regulated than America's voting machines, Freeman writes in a book out in July that argues, among other things, that President Bush may owe his 2004 win to an unfair vote count. We'll wait to read his book before making a judgment about that. But Freeman has assembled comparisons that suggest Americans protect their vices more than they guard their rights, according to data he presented at an October meeting of the American Statistical Association in Philadelphia.[/SPAN][/H2][H2 style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"][SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 18.0pt"][o:p][img height=678 alt="How To Steal an Election" src="vny!://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2006/03/16/GR2006031600213.gif" width=624][/o:p][/SPAN][/H2][P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"][SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"][?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /][v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"][v:stroke joinstyle="miter"][/v:stroke][v:formulas][v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"][/v:f][v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"][/v:f][v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"][/v:f][v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"][/v:f][v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"][/v:f][v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"][/v:f][v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"][/v:f][v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"][/v:f][v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"][/v:f][v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"][/v:f][v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"][/v:f][v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"][/v:f][/v:formulas][v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"][/v:path][o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"][/o:lock][/v:shapetype][o:p][/o:p][/SPAN]

[DIV style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #cccccc 0.75pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BACKGROUND: white; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 2pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"][P class=MsoNormal style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-border-top-alt: solid #CCCCCC .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 2.0pt 0in 0in 0in"][SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"]GRAPHIC: The Washington Post - March 16, 2006[o:p][/o:p][/SPAN]

[/DIV][P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"] [o:p][/o:p]

     

[soapbox]

uhmmm...very interesting.

[Adam_Fulford]

[A href="vny!://commonwonders.com/archives/col336.htm"]vny!://commonwonders.com/archives/col336.htm[/A]

[P align=center][FONT face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2][FONT size=4]Whistling Diebold
[FONT size=2]What price will we exact from a hero of democracy? [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[P align=center][FONT face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2]By ROBERT C. KOEHLER
Tribune Media Services[/FONT]

[P align=center][FONT face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2]March 9, 2006[/FONT]

[P align=left][FONT face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2]They ain't gonna kiss you just because you're a whistleblower. No matter that you exposed wrongdoing and struck a blow for fair elections. The larger good isn't always obvious to the powers that be.[/FONT]

[P align=left][FONT face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2]So Steve Heller, a Los Angeles-based actor whose day job is doing temporary office work, faces three felony charges, all of which are a stretch: felony access to computer data, commercial burglary and receiving stolen property. The Los Angeles County District Attorney's office says he's a thief, an Internet criminal, and that's that. And, oh yeah, he violated attorney-client confidentiality, and cost a big law firm a million dollars in lost business.[/FONT]

[P align=left][FONT face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2]Serious stuff. And if the DA's office has its way, this is all the judge and jury will look at: the law in its narrowest sense, as though ethical issues aren't sometimes murky and enormously complicated.[/FONT]

[P align=left][FONT face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2]Indeed, this is the story of a 44-year-old man who had a problem in practical ethics fall into his lap a little over two years ago, when he was temping in the word-processing center of Jones Day, a major Los Angeles law firm. Among the firm's clients was [A href="vny!://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diebold_Election_Systems"]Diebold Election Systems[/A], the largest manufacturer of electronic voting machines and voting machine software in the U.S. - and probably the most controversial.[/FONT]

[P align=left][FONT face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2]Diebold machines are notoriously hackable and unreliable, and the company itself is as secretive as it is politically connected. The company is in the forefront of the spread of unverifiable ("trust us") electronic voting across the country, a phenomenon that many computer experts and fair-election advocates find utterly terrifying.[/FONT]

[P align=left][FONT face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2]"In connection with his duties on Jan. 29, 2004, suspect Heller was given an assignment to work on a Jones Day document regarding Diebold voting machines," Heller's arrest warrant attests. "After completing that assignment, suspect Heller, without authorization, accessed and printed 107 Jones Day documents concerning their representation of Diebold."[/FONT]

[P align=left][FONT face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2]What the arrest warrant leaves out is that, in 2004, Diebold machines were going to be used in a number of California counties in the March primary and the November general elections, and the machines' questionable reliability was in the news a lot. And indeed, Diebold machines did malfunction in the March elections. But they didn't malfunction in November because by then they had been decertified by California Secretary of State Kevin Shelley - thanks in large part to Heller's actions.[/FONT]

[P align=left][FONT face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2]The documents Heller, the temp word processor, happened upon and subsequently printed out revealed a potential crime in progress. Here's where the ethics become urgent. He could either ignore what he saw or, at considerable personal risk and with nothing to gain except clarity of conscience, take action. He took action.[/FONT]

[P align=left][FONT face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2]He gave the documents to election-reform advocates, who got them into the hands of the media and state officials. Because he did, data concerning Diebold's use of uncertified software, which was supposed to remain private, became public knowledge. "In one memo," the Los Angeles Weekly wrote, "the law firm warned Diebold, before the March primary, that its use of uncertified vote-counting software in Alameda County, starting in 2002, violated California election law and broke its $12.7 million contract."[/FONT]

[P align=left][FONT face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2]And election-reform advocate Peter Soby wrote on Huffington Post: "So in a nutshell, Diebold was defrauding the state government and taxpayers of California, and disenfranchising the voters of California. And the documents prove it."[/FONT]

[P align=left][FONT face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2]Many of the documents were ultimately published online by the Oakland Tribune and, through Black Box Voting, a Seattle-based organization that has been a longtime critic and monitor of electronic voting, brought to the attention of Secretary of State Shelley. Diebold was eventually decertified and became the subject of both criminal and civil proceedings. While the criminal investigation was ultimately dropped, Diebold settled its civil suit with the state out of court in November 2004 for $2.6 million.[/FONT]

[P align=left][FONT face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2]Meanwhile Heller, whose home was raided by police in August 2004, faces almost four years in jail if convicted on all counts. There are those who think the main point of the DA's case against him is to put a chill in the hearts of potential whistleblowers out there who have access to dirty corporate secrets that affect the public welfare. Sandi Gibbons, a spokesman for the DA's office, called such charges "ridiculous."[/FONT]

[P align=left][FONT face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2]Maybe so, but I cringe at what seems like misplaced outrage. I cringe to watch the machinery of "justice" grind up a little guy who was faced with a terrible ethical choice and chose not to play it safe or dumb, but instead acted for the greater good.[/FONT]

[P align=left][FONT face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2]It's just about democracy is all. How rare, how amazing, to learn that ordinary citizens are still sometimes capable of pulling it from the clutches of big-money cynicism. As [A href="vny!://www.hellerlegaldefensefund.com/"]Steve Heller goes to trial[/A], I guess we'll find out what kind of price is now being exacted for such heroism.[/FONT]

[perpetual]

I have no idea what the point of Mr. Fulford's incessant copying & pasting was for....

[kitten]

Then I guess you haven't read it through.  It appears that the democracy that Bush is so insistent on in other countries isn't really necessary at home.  The whole thing is about the flagrant abuse of power to rig elections in order to gain power.  I think it is very frightening to have votes disregarded or deliberately altered.  The perpetrators should be on trial, not the whistleblower.

[TRUTH]

Diebold helped Bush steal both elections, no question about it now. Go to blackboxvoting.com, view the documentation, and make up your own mind. Diebold voting machines came preloaded in some cases, in other cases they recorded more votes than there were voters.

[TRUTH]

And for the record, I appreciate the things Adam posts. People like him help spread the word about what's going on.

[Marik]

Way too long to read...

[TehBorken]

Marik wrote:
Way too long to read...

Yeah, incriminating evidence about how the elections were stolen should be limited to a paragraph or two. It's not like your rights or your freedom is a big deal or anything. So what if we're practically living in a Police State. So what if  the president can lie and start wars for profit. So what if you can be secretly arrested and held forever without being charged with a crime. So what if they stole the elections. We still have our HBO and Budweiser and that's what really counts.

[CK]

TehBorken wrote:
Marik wrote:
[SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"]Way too long to read...[/SPAN]

Yeah, incriminating evidence about how the elections were stolen should be limited to a paragraph or two. It's not like your rights or your freedom is a big deal or anything. So what if we're practically living in a Police State. So what if  the president can lie and start wars for profit. So what if you can be secretly arrested and held forever without being charged with a crime. So what if they stole the elections. [SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"]We still have our HBO and Budweiser and that's what really counts. [/SPAN]
[/DIV]
Wayy too long to read. As long as "Survivor" hour isn't interupted and my SUV is full of gas so I can get to Wal Mart, leave me alone!!

[Witch]

TehBorken wrote:
Marik wrote:
[SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"]Way too long to read...[/SPAN]

Yeah, incriminating evidence about how the elections were stolen should be limited to a paragraph or two.

Witch asks:

What evidence? So far we have seen no actual evidence. We have seen a lot of speculation and a lot of writing that is being purported to be evidence...

But so far we have seen no evidence.