Star Wars : Revenge of the Sith

Started by Mutilated MInd, Sep 28 06 04:15

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Mutilated MInd

  Did you watch this movie ?

Do you remember the scene in which the young Darth Vader is very badly wounded with legs burned off and the Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi is furious with him for turning against his own side and is leaving him to die a painful death ?

Didn't you have second thoughts about that scene ? I did.

Obi Wan Kenobi, who is a Jedi Master knowing all about the fight between good and evil, between light and dark, just leaves his former pupil to suffer and die miserably ?

This strikes me as very, very odd. I can't believe a supposedly highly evolved person, fighting at the good side, would leave anyone - even a former pupil turned wrong - just to die like this, no better than an animal. Shouldn't he have tried to talk sense into young future Darth Vader and getting him back to the good side ? Or shouldn't he just have let his heart speak and have alerted a rescue team anyway ?

Obi Wan did neither of these things. And so doing, he gave young Darth Vader to the dark side himself, as the evil lord Palpatine did send a rescue team, which saved young Vader's life and reaffirmed his new loyalty to the dark side. They even gave him his future as "Dark Vader".

So much for people calling themselves "Master" and thinking they fight for good.

Raver

Mutilated MInd wrote:


 WORDS....

So much for people calling themselves "Master" and thinking they fight for good.

 


 The guy had not only just tried to kill him and his own wife, he slaughtered a bunch of children right before.  I think even Ghandi would have let him die.

 


 

Mutilated Mind

You are wrong. Very, very wrong.

The course of action taken by Obi Wan in the movie is nothing else than the behavior any usual person (and certainly a person with minimal feelings for his fellow human beings) would have shown, based on the self-righteous attitude which says : this person has done things which I deem to be very, very bad, which I myself would never do, and so I condemn him to (fill in blank).

Mutilated Mind

Actually, I didn't even mean to say "any usual person" because a usual person would try to set his own feelings of resentment aside if possible at all. Only those which are less than human would act on their personal feelings of resentment in such a case. Now I understand this would be a difficult thing if they were harmed themselves or through a beloved one, but still, they would at least TRY to set aside their resentment and thirst of revenge if any.

Mutilated Mind

Moreover, you are very presumptious in claiming that Ghandi would have let him die.

jay

If I remember correctly, Obi-Wan considered Anikan his brother, and his best friend.  Earlier in the film, he even tells Yoda that he will not kill Anikan.  
You know those family members sitting in the courtroom, supporting their son or brother or daughter or sister or whatever relation,  telling the press that they either know their family member isn't guilty, or regardless of guilt, are still there in support of their family member, seeking if nothing else, mercy for their family member?   I imagine its pretty much the same thing.  And just because he's a "master"  doesn't mean he isn't affected by his own feelings.  He couldn't end his friend's life, it was too much of a conflict for him.  

  If you follow any of the other 'star wars' stories, that either take place before episodes I-VI or after, you see other jedi masters falling from grace because of their emotions or desires.  And you discover that being a 'jedi master' doesn't make them superhuman.   On the contrary, those characters are probably subject to temptation more so than anyone else in that 'universe.'

just an opinion.  
 

CK

wow! There was a lot of odd things about this movie for sure.

  I think Lucas said though in regards to the critics, you don't like it, too bad!

Raver

Mutilated Mind wrote:
Actually, I didn't even mean to say "any usual person" because a usual person would try to set his own feelings of resentment aside if possible at all. Only those which are less than human would act on their personal feelings of resentment in such a case. Now I understand this would be a difficult thing if they were harmed themselves or through a beloved one, but still, they would at least TRY to set aside their resentment and thirst of revenge if any.
 
 

 I disagree.  I would let my own father die if I knew for a fact he was not only hostile toward me but also had just slaughtered a bunch of children.  End of story.  

 If that makes me a bad person, so be it.  

 I can not forgive that, nor do I think any rational person could.  

 Moreover, in the context of the story, Obi-wan knew that Aniken and Palpatine together would spell the end of the Jedi.  Aniken had already, as he later tells Luke in ROTJ, ceased to be Aniken and had become Vader.  Aniken was already dead to him.  

 The injuries Aniken suffered at the hand of Obi-wan were in self defense.  Not only that, but Obi-wan did not kill him, as he told Yoda he could not.  He left him and as we know, he did not die.  If Obi-wan did one thing wrong it was to not finish him off, because that leads to the deaths of millions of innocents with the destruction of Alderaan and whatever other things happen between ep 3 and 4.

 To put it into a real life context, if you had the chance to kill Hitler at the start of his reign, knowing full well what he would do and you didn't... Well I think that would make you the bad person.

 

 

Mutilated Mind

jay wrote:
If I remember correctly, Obi-Wan considered Anikan his brother, and his best friend. Earlier in the film, he even tells Yoda that he will not kill Anikan. You know those family members sitting in the courtroom, supporting their son or brother or daughter or sister or whatever relation, telling the press that they either know their family member isn't guilty, or regardless of guilt, are still there in support of their family member, seeking if nothing else, mercy for their family member?  I imagine its pretty much the same thing. And just because he's a "master" doesn't mean he isn't affected by his own feelings. He couldn't end his friend's life, it was too much of a conflict for him.

 If you follow any of the other 'star wars' stories, that either take place before episodes I-VI or after, you see other jedi masters falling from grace because of their emotions or desires. And you discover that being a 'jedi master' doesn't make them superhuman. On the contrary, those characters are probably subject to temptation more so than anyone else in that 'universe.'

just an opinion.
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Jay, you are apparently trying to explain to me why Obi Wan didn't kill Annakin. This is not what I was wondering about. It is why Obi Wan left Annakin to die miserably, rather than trying to get to know WHY for heaven's sake Annakin chose to join the dark side (and calling for a rescue team rather than let Palpatine take care of it).


Remember Obi Wan's impatient and irritated shout, just before he left : "You weren't supposed to join them, you were supposed to fight them !"

This suggests Obi Wan considered Annakin somewhat of a nitwit who is too stupid to do was he was told to, doesn't it ? Or perhaps that Obi Wan himself wasn't exactly very bright either. It actually suggests they were communicating on the level of rather obtuse people who never try to get at the why of things but just shout and remonstrate - which seems odd to me.

Try to envision some people, amongst all those categories of American citizens you know, to whom such an exchange would be natural - do any of those have the looks and feel of Jedi Masters, or in other ways evolved beings ?

Of course, I suppose Jedi Masters would not be perfect as you imply, particularly if they are still young (which BTW is another oddity to me : young Annakin definitely seems very immature emotionally ; how could such a person be a "Master" in any way ?). Nevertheless, their experience I would say should make them more able to resist temptation than other people. "Usual" temptation, that is, as it could be imagined that the dark side would try to lure experienced Jedi Masters to its side with particularly nasty and crafty schemes...

Raver

"Young Annakin definitely seems very immature emotionally ; how could such a person be a "Master" in any way ?"

 


  He was not a Master.  He was only a Jedi.

  When Obi-wan and Vader meet in episode 4;

  Darth Vader: I've been waiting for you, Obi-Wan. We meet again, at last. The circle is now complete. When I met you I was but the learner. Now, *I* am the master.
Obi-Wan: Only a master of evil, Darth.

  I agree that Anikin's slide to the dark side is kind of quick and poorly written by Lucas but I just chalk it up to Palpatine using some kind of dark jedi mind trick.  I mean, the guy had most of the senate under his spell, is it really so hard to believe he could have an effect on Anikin?  All he had to do was feed into Anikin's teen angst and rebeliousness and he was already half way there.


  On a side note, this is the nerdiest discussion I've been a part of in a very long time.      

Cricket

On a side note, this is the nerdiest discussion I've been a part of in a very long time.

     
 Nothing wrong with that!!