Oh The Irony

Started by TehBorken, Jun 20 06 09:07

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TehBorken

[font style="font-weight: bold;" class="headline"][a href="vny!://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/06/20/D8IBVC3O1.html"]Iraqi: U.S. Bodies Showed Signs of Torture[/a]

[/font][font class="headline"]Let me see if I understand this correctly...we invade their country, bomb it into rubble, kill tens of thousands of their civilians (possibly over 100,000), impose martial law and try to dictate how their government will operate. At the same time we're kidnapping their civilians and combatants alike and sending them off to places like Guantanamo and Abu Grahib to be tortured to death (although sometimes for variety we send them off to other countries to be tortured and killed). And, occasionally our soldiers just run amuck and murder gobs of Iraqi civilians wholesale in a show of unrestrained combat exuberance.

But everyone here is shocked and horrified when they torture and kill two, count 'em two US soldiers. I mean, gosh, it's not like we did anything to provoke them, right?

I can hear Rush Limbaugh now- "What's wrong with those people? Have they no sense of decency? Why, they're barbarians!"

Give me a f*cking break. Those of you who think George Bush and this war is so great can kiss my shiny metal ass. What a bunch of f*cking hypocrites- you make me want to vomit.

[/font]  
The real trouble with reality is that there's no background music.

weird al

Mr Bush's carefully thought-out policy towards Iraq is the only way to bring about international peace and security. The one certain way to stop Muslim fundamentalist suicide bombers targeting the US or the UK is to bomb a few Muslim countries that have never threatened us.

weird al

I hate to admit it, but I stole that last line. I wish I'd said it, and all the other great things Terry Jones said in his columns these last few years, collected in his book Terry Jones' War on the War on Terror. Here's a sample column:

  [A href="vny!://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,882459,00.html"]vny!://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,882459,00.html[/A]  

Dissident

 Geez, I don't know, guys.  

I've got friends in the Army who joined long before 9/11—mostly reservists, but one of them may end up making a career out of it if he lives long enough.  Only reason why he joined is that, after going into the Marines because there were no career options in the bumf*ck Western PA town where he grew up (and never getting the job training the Marines promised him:  surprise, surprise), he married his high school sweetheart, knocked her up and went back to PA when he cashiered out to bring up their family.  Sure enough, even in the biggest economic boom in memory, there were no jobs in their area (this is near where Trent Reznor grew up, btw—helps explain some of his music, I think).  So he joined the Army for an income and medical benefits.

The others went into the reserves to pay for college.  Again, this was before 9/11, but they haven't managed to get out, even though they're in their late 20s.  They've done numerous tours in the Middle East, even before the war began.

All of these guys supported the Democratic candidate since they were able to vote, as well.  My buddy in PA blames the Reagan administration for his grandparents losing their farm, so he'd be damned if he ever voted for a Republican, and he thinks what Bush has done to veterans' benefits is a crime.  The others were leftie college students when they joined.

The travesty is that so many military recruiters go into depressed areas and sell a bill of goods to kids who want to get ahead but have no options.  It's considered admirable that they look to a "clean" way to make a living instead of going into the underground criminal economy, yet we anti-Bush types are ready to send them to the depths of Hell because they were just trying to make something of themselves.

To me, that's the real tragedy.  If it were a couple of Halliburton executives with gold-plated estates back in Texas being tortured to death instead of some poor brainwashed kids, I wouldn't lose a moment of sleep.
   
fenec rawks!

weird al

I don't think anybody's blowing off the torture and killing of American soldiers (or any other soldiers) here. I believe the original point was something to the effect that that one should not be terribly surprised that such a thing has happened, given the intense feelings that people must harbour when their country is invaded without a scintilla of justification or finesse.    

Sportsdude

People down here think Reagan was God's gift to humanity when in reality he created this entire mess.  Gave arms and built the caves for Osama, then built air bases in Saudi Arabia which Osama and Islam consider sacred then in 1988 Osama calls his first Jihad for this reason.

Iran contra, Reagan sold weapons to Iran for the prisoners release.

During the Iran-Iraq war Reagan hated Iranians so much he propped a dictator (Saddam) and gave him chemical weapons and told him how to make them.

  And yet people down here don't want to believe that. Unbelievable.  They say its not true and its liberal propoganda. These idiots are f*cking brainwashed!

  Oh and of course its okay if we do it but if the 'bad guys' do it its WAR BITCHES!!!!

This has been the U.S. policy since its infancy.  Typical double standard.
"We can't stop here. This is bat country."

BCRE8TIV

 weird al wrote:
I don't think anybody's blowing off the torture and killing of American soldiers (or any other soldiers) here. I believe the original point was something to the effect that that one should not be terribly surprised that such a thing has happened, given the intense feelings that people must harbour when their country is invaded without a scintilla of justification or finesse.

 
THAT'S HOW I READ IT- NOT A SLAM AGAINST THE ARMED FORCES BUT THAT THIS KIND OF RESPONSE SHOULD COME AS NO SURPRISE, CONSIDERING ALL THE HIDEOUS SHIT WE'VE DONE TO THEM.

TehBorken

 weird al wrote:
I believe the original point was something to the effect that that one should not be terribly surprised that such a thing has happened

That was indeed the point I was trying to make, along with the fact that we've been doing much worse things on a much grander scale. It's like axe-murdering your neighbor and then holding his kids responsible for the blood stains on your shirt.

Normally I support the folks in the Armed Forces (not whacko King George who commands them), but it's getting harder and harder for me to to do that.
 
 
The real trouble with reality is that there's no background music.

tenkani

I've been pretty close to some soldiers in my life and have learned to respect them (or not) as individuals.
In other words, while some people find this hard to understand, some of us actually support our [span style="text-decoration: underline;"]troops[/span] (as in, we don't want to see them tortured and killed; we want them home safe), while at the same time hating our foreign policy, and understanding the anger it generates around the world.

Too many conservatives IMO conflate criticism of U.S. foreign policy with a lack of respect for U.S. soldiers. As others have noted, the true demonstration of disrespect and callous disregard for their safety was shown by the Bush administration, when it commited them to a doomed war based on lies and greed.

Support our troops by bringing them home safe.
 
For thou art with me; thy cream and thy sugar they comfort me
Thou preparest a carafe before me in the presence of Juan Valdez
Thou anointest my day with pep; my mug runneth over
Surely richness and taste shall follow me all the days of my life
And I will dwell in the house of coffee forever.

TehBorken

 Dissident wrote:
If it were a couple of Halliburton executives with gold-plated estates back in Texas being tortured to death instead of some poor brainwashed kids, I wouldn't lose a moment of sleep.

I'd be more than willing to have my tax dollars spent on that. When I become Planetary Dictator For Life, the Halliburton execs will be the first ones put up against the wall.
 
The real trouble with reality is that there's no background music.

Dissident

    TehBorken wrote:
Normally I support the folks in the Armed Forces (not whacko King George who commands them), but it's getting harder and harder for me to to do that.


What worries me about eroding sympathy for the soldiers themselves in the face of news of atrocities in Iraq is the potential for them to become demonised the way Vietnam vets were.  In retrospect, I'm under the impression that since Vietnam we as a society—even our most anti-war factions—realise that it had been wrong to further victimise these guys, as the government and military had already put them through enough.  Dare I say it, (having received two smites in the past 24 hours, and not sure whether it's for this subject or my dissing of the Oilers yesterday, I'm feeling a bit tentative today) but the re-examination of the kinds of hoopdidoopal situations that led to atrocities like My Lai has also given many of us greater sensitivity to how the pressures of war on undertrained and undersupported troops contribute to these tragedies.

Even though this is a different context, and even though a de jure draft is not yet in place, I hope that enough people realise the economic realities behind involvement with the military to recognise that, once again, this is a war in which the poor are being forced to pay a disproportionate price.

Six months after the start of the war, I was visiting a family friend who had made a career as an Army psychiatrist (and had served in Vietnam),  who told me that there had already been something like 6,000 psychiatric admissions of troops returning from Iraq since the beginning of the war.  People are coming back severely traumatised from the experience, and I think the last thing we should do is condemn them personally or be flip about some of the horrible things that happen to them.

 
 
   
fenec rawks!

Dissident

 TehBorken wrote:
 Dissident wrote:
If it were a couple of Halliburton executives with gold-plated estates back in Texas being tortured to death instead of some poor brainwashed kids, I wouldn't lose a moment of sleep.

I'd be more than willing to have my tax dollars spent on that. When I become Planetary Dictator For Life, the Halliburton execs will be the first ones put up against the wall.



Comrade, I'll be right there next to you, mowing these mofos down.
 
 
fenec rawks!

tenkani

People are always so hesitant to compare our current conflict with the Vietnam war. The similarities are startling when you actually start to look at it, but in the context of this thread, you're absolutely right, we should look to that oft forgotten war to see what happens to soldiers placed in an unpopular, unwinnable situation where they are forced to co-exist with an increasingly resentful and hostile local population only to return home to public disinterest or negative steriotypes and find no help from an underfunded VA system.

These guys are going through hell, and eventually the chickens will come home to roost. We'll be paying for this war (in many senses) for decades as it rots us from the inside.

Beware the military industrial complex? You bet.
 
For thou art with me; thy cream and thy sugar they comfort me
Thou preparest a carafe before me in the presence of Juan Valdez
Thou anointest my day with pep; my mug runneth over
Surely richness and taste shall follow me all the days of my life
And I will dwell in the house of coffee forever.

Dissident

Don't forget the "prison/industrial complex", too.  A lot of these guys could very likely end up in the prison population, contracted out for pennies a day . . .  
fenec rawks!

Dissident

 btw, just want to give you a "thumbs up" as a Santa Cruz/Monterey type.

It was some nice guy from Santa Cruz who—back in '91 when I was sitting on a Muni bus being removed from a protest site to processing "pens" in the basement of the Hall of Justice in SF (this during the first Gulf War, of course)—helped get those nasty plastic cuffs off my wrists before they did further nerve damage.  I made part of my living typing then, so I was grateful . . .

You guys live in Paradise, so it's good that you take notice of what's happening in the rest of the world.  It can be soooo easy to become self-satisfied and complacent with your life and beautiful surroundings.  I see that a lot here in Vancouver . . .
   
fenec rawks!