The 'Good Morning' and such Thread

Started by Chicklet, May 23 06 09:41

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Chicklet

Our yard is quite big but the area we want to create is only about 22x28.  Our climate zone number is 8 and it gets to about -5 at the worst.  It's getting warmer and warmer during the winters here.  As for the frost, it's pretty minimal but we do get it from about early Nov into late march.
'In every group of human beings you will find a few specimens of below average intelligence, above average ego and spectacularly bad judgement.' - tenkani

Sportsdude

They have and still do not let me do the lawn because every house I've lived in has had a huge hill in it and our lawn mowers have been known to be dangerous and they don't trust me, I'll screw something up and not make it look good.

  Backyard hill is as steep as this picture:

[A href="vny!://4north.no-ip.com:8080/pics/shindig03/orig/michelle_steep_hill.jpg"]vny!://4north.no-ip.com:8080/pics/shindig03/orig/michelle_steep_hill.jpg[/A]
"We can't stop here. This is bat country."

tenkani

 Ok, well it makes a huge difference whether you intend to plant directly into the ground or use planters.

Cedars have massive, shallow root systems that will drink up nearby water and nutrients so if you plant into the ground it has to be something that can survive in that competitive environment.

Also, I think the soil under cedars tends to be acidic, but I'm sure Gopher would know more. That can be dealt with by adding limestone chips I believe but it's a lot of grunt work. If I were you I'd have my soil tested first of all.

Were you looking for a ground cover? Supposedly carpet bugle and english ivy can survive under cedars. Maybe vinca as well. Be careful though, because vinca major is highly invasive and a vigorous grower. Vinca minor might be a better choice, although it will take a little longer to spread.

When you mention the zone, are we talking Sunset zones here?
   
For thou art with me; thy cream and thy sugar they comfort me
Thou preparest a carafe before me in the presence of Juan Valdez
Thou anointest my day with pep; my mug runneth over
Surely richness and taste shall follow me all the days of my life
And I will dwell in the house of coffee forever.

Chicklet

Thanks man.  Zone 8 actually refers to the climate.  We will be planting directly into the soil but we need to build a retaining wall and add soil to level out the area.  I really want something that looks forest-like and will pretty much take care of itself.  We would definately do some type of ground cover.  We have english ivy growing on a wall not far from the tree so I would probably go with something a little different.  I'm not too worried about the hard work to get it going as I'm sure the result will extremely rewarding.  I've found a couple of great web sites that give plant lists for shade areas but wanted your expert opinion tenk.
'In every group of human beings you will find a few specimens of below average intelligence, above average ego and spectacularly bad judgement.' - tenkani

tenkani

 Can you estimate how many hours of sun the area gets per day or is it completely shaded out by the cedar foliage?

Off the top of my head, hosta, acanthis mollis (bear's breech), various ferns and impatiens will likely do well. I need to cross-check with my sunset guide though to check the zone requirements.

I found a horticultural message base and someone provided the following list:

Mahonia nervosa (Low Oregon Grape)
Polystichum munitum (Western Sword Fern)
Epimedium
Vancouveria (Inside-out Flower)
Lonicera (Honeysuckle Species)
Vaccinium parvifolium (Red Huckleberry)
Vaccinium ovatum (Evergreen Huckleberry)
Sambucus (Elderberry)
Gaultheria Shallon (Salal) - be careful, this can crowd out other plants.

Western Sword Fern will be the most successful in this competitive situation.

And here's an interersting journal/article on gardening under cedars!
vny!://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/shade_gardening/9872
 
For thou art with me; thy cream and thy sugar they comfort me
Thou preparest a carafe before me in the presence of Juan Valdez
Thou anointest my day with pep; my mug runneth over
Surely richness and taste shall follow me all the days of my life
And I will dwell in the house of coffee forever.

tenkani

LOL, I know the zone refers to climate, but there are several different systems for determining climate zone. Here in the U.S., we have sunset zones and USDA zones and they are definitely NOT compatible.

In class we use the sunset zones exclusively, but that's mostly because our textbook for plant ID was the sunset western garden book    :)
 
For thou art with me; thy cream and thy sugar they comfort me
Thou preparest a carafe before me in the presence of Juan Valdez
Thou anointest my day with pep; my mug runneth over
Surely richness and taste shall follow me all the days of my life
And I will dwell in the house of coffee forever.

Chicklet

Our sunset zone is 4.  Sorry, has it become terribly clear that I have no idea what I am doing?

The area gets about 4-5 hours of sun a day and it's afternoon sun to sun set.
'In every group of human beings you will find a few specimens of below average intelligence, above average ego and spectacularly bad judgement.' - tenkani

tenkani

Hey, I was just reading up in my text on zone 4 and you should be happy, check this out...
"No zone grows better perennials and bulbs; people who like woodland plants and rock plants love zone 4."
woodland plants = shade plants so w00h00!!    

Just checking out some of the possibilities cross-reffed with my sunset guide...

Acanthus Mollis  - Bear's Breech : Mollis isn't listed for zone 4, but its cousins Acanthus balcanicus and Acanthus spinosa are. I happen to like this plant, but it's a little weird looking so I'm sure it's a matter of personal taste. Does very well in shade. It needs water though, so if you want low-maintenance then maybe it's not the plant for you.

Hostas are another plant I love and would do well in your climate and in shade, but again, they will need watering. Have you considered setting up an automatic irrigation system?

Hydrangeas, again need water but should do well in your climate.

Sword fern is the same. Great looking, does well in shade, but under a cedar would require additional watering, especially in the summer.

I think I may have mentioned Impatiens before. I don't think they could be grown as perennials in your climate, but Gopher will know more.

Mahonia nervosa is a groundcover that might be something worth looking into, as it needs very little water and does well in the shade and in your climate. Look online for pics and maybe check it out at a nursery to see if it's the kind of plant you'd like in your woodland landscape.

Epimedium does well under trees and needs only moderate water. It might be worth looking into.

Vancouveria looks a bit like ivy and makes a nice groundcover in shady areas and actually prefers acid soil, but it needs moderate to regular water and "spreads slowly", unlike ivy. I guess it might come down to how quickly you'd like to see results.

 
For thou art with me; thy cream and thy sugar they comfort me
Thou preparest a carafe before me in the presence of Juan Valdez
Thou anointest my day with pep; my mug runneth over
Surely richness and taste shall follow me all the days of my life
And I will dwell in the house of coffee forever.

Chicklet

Thank you so much tenkani!  Invaluble information.  I am very excited about the idea, now I just have to execute it.  I have 4 weeks off coming up and will probably start working on it then.  Is it okay to start a new garden this late in the season?  I'll be sure to keep you updated and pick your brain if that's okay.  If I could figure out how to post pics I could do a before and after.  That will be my mission this afternoon.
'In every group of human beings you will find a few specimens of below average intelligence, above average ego and spectacularly bad judgement.' - tenkani

tenkani

I don't think it's too late to start...well, Ok starting in early spring would have been nice but nothings perfect right?

The thing you really want to avoid is having new plants in the ground when the first frost comes. The more settled they are by the time the first cold snap hits the better.

Get your soil tested.
 
For thou art with me; thy cream and thy sugar they comfort me
Thou preparest a carafe before me in the presence of Juan Valdez
Thou anointest my day with pep; my mug runneth over
Surely richness and taste shall follow me all the days of my life
And I will dwell in the house of coffee forever.

P.C.

Hello green thumbed friends.....this all sounds so excting

  Sacred site of green thumbs

  [img style="WIDTH: 253px; HEIGHT: 393px" height=502 alt="Sacred Site for Green Thumb Worshippers" src="vny!://collections.ic.gc.ca/waic/jajohn/jajohn04.jpg" width=345]
Sir Isaac Newton invented the swinging door....for the convenience of his cat.

Chicklet

Yes Sir!  Will do.  

I think if I can do it sooner (like in the next two weeks) rather than later the plants should be well on their way to being established before the first frost.  But hey, this is Vancouver.  The saying "if you don't like the weather, wait 5 minutes."  was made for us.
'In every group of human beings you will find a few specimens of below average intelligence, above average ego and spectacularly bad judgement.' - tenkani

P.C.

These ferns cover the forest floor everywhere in my yard......as they thrive naturally in sunshine and shadow, and are plentiful around a cedar forest, they can make nice 'filler' ( and I'm sure you can find an area where you could gently 'liberate' a couple)

  [img height=193 src="vny!://www.enoriver.org/eno/wildflowers/Christmas%20Fern.jpg" width=276]
Sir Isaac Newton invented the swinging door....for the convenience of his cat.

Chicklet

Thanks P.C.  I really like ferns and they are one of the first plants I think of when I think of the forest.

If you don't mind me asking, what part of the lower mainland do you live in?  I know that there are not many houses left that sit on that kind of land.
'In every group of human beings you will find a few specimens of below average intelligence, above average ego and spectacularly bad judgement.' - tenkani

P.C.

You're so right Chicklet....that kind of property on the lower mainland IS becoming scarce.....well if not scarce, unaffordable.  I live on the the Island.....lots of affordable foresty properties here. (I bought in 88, compared to todays' prices, they almost gave it to me...lol)

  I was pretty strapped for cash in those days, so made do with native plants.  Lupins, columbine, foxgloves and various wildflowers.....and of course lots of ferns.  It seems if you change their 'wild' or natural situation and plant them as you would a more 'formal' garden....it becomes quite lovely.  (and very little is needed from the nursery each year to fill in some splashes of colour)  Mostly I add planters and hanging baskets and that's all I really need.  oh yeah....and lots of hostas.  They DO like their water, but can tolerate LONG periods of drought.

  Your ideas sound like you're heading in the right direction......good for you.
Sir Isaac Newton invented the swinging door....for the convenience of his cat.

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