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General Category => Discover Seattle! => Topic started by: God on Feb 15 06 05:52

Title: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: God on Feb 15 06 05:52
All this over a cartoon.....isn't religion great?
[font face="Verdana,Sans-serif"][font color="black" size="2"]PESHAWAR,Pakistan (AP) - Gunfire and rioting erupted Wednesday as tens ofthousands of people took to the streets in several Pakistani citiesduring the country's third consecutive day of violent protests over theProphet Muhammad cartoons. Three people were killed, including an8-year-old boy.[/font][/font][/p][font face="Verdana,Sans-serif"][font color="black" size="2"]More than70,000 people flooded the streets of the northwestern city of Peshawar,said Saeed Wazir, a senior police officer. The massive crowd went on arampage, torching businesses and fighting police, who struck back withtear gas and batons. A bus terminal operated by South Korea's SammiCorp. was torched, police said.[/font][/font][/p][font face="Verdana,Sans-serif"][font color="black" size="2"]Protestersburned a KFC restaurant, three movie theaters and the offices of themain mobile phone company in the country. A Norwegian mobile phonecompany's offices were also ransacked. Gunfire was heard near theburning KFC, as police tried to clear people from a main street,witnesses said.[/font][/font][/p][font face="Verdana,Sans-serif"][font color="black" size="2"]An8-year-old boy died after being struck in the face by a bullet fired bya protester, police officer Shahid Khan said. A 25-year-old man waskilled by an electric cable that was snapped by gunfire, said the man'scousin, Jehangir Khan.[/font][/font][/p]
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Witch on Feb 15 06 06:30
I sincerely doubt that God has anything to do with any of the horrible atrocities perpetrated by humans in the name of religion, no matter what religion it is.

I also doubt God would bother to post here to bitch about it.
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: WWJP on Feb 15 06 08:14
Lol, What Would Jesus Post?
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: TehBorken on Feb 15 06 08:23
I also doubt God would bother to post here to bitch about it.

Yeah, he'd post on DV first. lol  (http:///forums/richedit/smileys/Shocked/6.gif)
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Future Canadian on Feb 15 06 08:30
I sincerely doubt that God has anything to do with any of the horrible atrocities perpetrated by humans in the name of religion, no matter what religion it is.[/DIV] [/DIV]I also doubt God would bother to post here to bitch about it.[/DIV] [/DIV]Forgive me for wandering slightly off topic but you hit on my point about religion in general. Whether or not there is a god is a moot point no matter what one's belief. The existance of a god is both impossible to prove or disprove so WhyTF bother arguing about it? Just get on with your life and do what you feel must be done. Your God/Gaia/Random Chance gave you a full life and set of faculties to use, so use them (including a critical thinking mind). One's own personal beliefs will guide them if one does what is right according to their beliefs. The full Greater Good can be achieved.But all this shite bickering and proselytizing and fighting is the real problem. Nothing will come of telling others that their beliefs are wrong and they have to follow another set of beliefs.And honestly, I don't even think a god would even be aware of your existence. A being that most religions describe would have to such a gigantic concept, that we don't even have the brain capacity to begin to set up a paradigm for even trying to imagine this creature, much less to determine its wishes. If you plant a field of grass do you tend every single sprout? I don't think Mohammed really would give a toss about a few hack cartoons. That wouldn't be on his agenda if he were here right now.
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Future Canadian on Feb 15 06 08:31
[FONT size=4][SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"]Lol, What Would Mohammed Post?[/SPAN][/FONT]

(http://discoverseattle.net/forums/richedit/smileys/Happy/4.gif)
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: TehBorken on Feb 15 06 08:40
I don't think Mohammed really would give a toss about a few hack cartoons.

I agree. Of all the pointless things for people to get worked up about, this is near the top of the list. Is the Muslim religion so fragile that a cartoon can cause it harm or bring about its downfall?

Really, the silliness over this thing is reaching epic proportions!
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Witch on Feb 15 06 08:40
I sincerely doubt that God has anything to do with any of the horrible atrocities perpetrated by humans in the name of religion, no matter what religion it is.[/DIV] [/DIV]I also doubt God would bother to post here to bitch about it.[/DIV] [/DIV]Forgive me for wandering slightly off topic but you hit on my point about religion in general. Whether or not there is a god is a moot point no matter what one's belief. The existance of a god is both impossible to prove or disprove so WhyTF bother arguing about it? Just get on with your life and do what you feel must be done.

You've never actually been a member of an absoluteist religion, have you FC?

The absolutelist mindset not only gives you the right to do anything, so long as God or his designated spokesman says it, but you have the responsibility to do it. The absoluteist mindset sees freedom of religion as an abomination. The absoluteist mindset sees conversion as a matter of public safety. The absoluteist mindset sees the entire universe as a battleground  between the forces of Good and Evil in perpetual, violent, and bloody warfare. The absoluteist mindset sees their particular values and moral strictures as being absolutely necessary for everyone to adhere to, no matter what your particular belifs are, and they feel it their moral duty before God to force you to abide by those moral strictures. There's very little difference between Muslims rioting over a cartoon of Mohammed, and Christians conspiring to commit financial blackmail to force stores to say "Merry Christmas".
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: TehBorken on Feb 15 06 08:40
Lol, What Would [em]Mohammed[/em] Post?[/size]


[font style="color: rgb(0, 0, 255); background-color: rgb(255, 159, 64);" size="7"]LOLOLOL!![/font]
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Future Canadian on Feb 15 06 08:47
Excellent points Witch. I think I was dancing around the point that fundamentalism is the true evil. And if the element of having to convert others was completely removed from world religions the world would be a much better place. I would even appreciate faith at that point.[/DIV]You are correct that there is no stopping the absolutist mindset. They are worse than the Borg.
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Witch on Feb 15 06 09:17
Most of the worlds religions do not have the requirement to convert others. The few that do just happen to be the largest, due in no small part to the requirement to convert others. The major factor in their overwhelming growth is the doctrine of forced conversion by the sword, which was practiced by all the Abramic religions until very recently.

Most of the worlds religions accept that other peoples' religion is as valid as theirs.
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: kevlar on Feb 15 06 10:46
Although I grew up in a fairly Catholic enviroment, went to chuch on Sundays and became an alter boy, I really don't consider myself that religious. I guess that is why I have always had a hard time in reasoning why the world is so full of trife in the name of religion. [/DIV]Now in the barrage of jokes and emails I get on a daily basis I can recall the odd cartoon or joke about Jesus Christ on the cross. Now I'm not saying I agree with these type of jokes but why is there such aggression. It's great that people have such passion but why be so fanatical. Why all the bloodshed ?[/DIV]Would any God any it this way? I just don't understand?
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: tenkani on Feb 15 06 11:20
Great thread, and  *gasp*  it hasn't degenerated into a racist flame-fest!!!     (http://www.motleycrow.com/ImageHost/icon_smile_shock.gif)

You guys have made a lot of excellent points. I read/heard somewhere (sorry, brain's not quite working yet) a discussion about priorities in the Islamic world. And about protest. Recently in Iraq, an insurgent exploded a bomb and killed a number of civilians. This insurgent then posed as a civilian and drove some of the survivors to the hospital, whereapon he detonated a second bomb, killing the survivors and surrounding medical personnel.

Did the moderate Islamic community take to the streets, and protest this horror (or hundreds like it) that was comitted in their name? No. But when a cartoon is drawn of their religious leader...

Most Muslims are not mindless, bloodthirsty fanatics. The problem is that the mainstream Muslim community, for a variety of reasons, seems incapable of self-criticism, that is, attacking elements within itself that many Muslims claim are "anti-Islamic". Everywhere I turn, I hear that Islam is a "religion of peace", yet when a terrorist/insurgent commits an act of barbarism in the name of Islam, the mainstream Muslim community in general is silent. The incident with these stupid cartoons proves that when motivated, these believers take to the streets and voice their opinions strongly. So why do cartoons motivate them so much more strongly than the brutal deaths of countless fellow Muslims? Sorry, this is turning into a ramble. I guess my point is that the "problem" with the Muslim world goes beyond the fanatical core of fundamentalists responsible for carrying on the worldwide Jihad. A true "religion of peace" would mandate the immediate condemnation of all acts of brutality against civilians. So why the silence?
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Tor Johnston on Feb 15 06 07:02
One thing I don't think was mentioned is that the Muslim world isacollective culture, unlike North America & Europe. Although someofus may attend church every Sunday, most Muslims will attendtheirmosques many, many times a week.

Itis the political view in Islam not to depict Mohammed. ThepoliticalIslamists have been baited and are breeding Europeananti-Islamsentiment as a result, allowing perhaps for European sympathywith theAmerican war effort.

It is my opinion that when theUSA attacks Iran in the next few months, there will be far more supportfrom the EU and European citizens. It won't be Iraq all over again.

Let's not forget the real reason Saddam was taken: he was planning to sell oil on the Euro to undermine the US dollar.
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Tor Johnston on Feb 15 06 08:40
(What's with the run-ons?) I'll try that again...

One thing I don't think was mentioned is that the Muslim worldis a collective culture, unlike North America & Europe. Althoughsome of us may attend church every Sunday, most Muslims willattend their mosques many, many times a week.

Itis the politicalview in Islam not to depict Mohammed. The political Islamists have beenbaited and are breeding European anti-Islam sentiment as a result,allowing perhaps for European sympathy with the American war effort.

Itis my opinion that when the USA attacks Iran in the next few months,there will be far more support from the EU and European citizens. Itwon't be Iraq all over again.

Let's not forget the real reason Saddam was taken: he was planning to sell oil on the Euro to undermine the US dollar.
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Future Canadian on Feb 15 06 09:54
Great thread, and  *gasp*  it hasn't degenerated into a racist flame-fest!!!     (http://www.motleycrow.com/ImageHost/icon_smile_shock.gif)

(http://discoverseattle.net/forums/richedit/smileys/9.gif) Shhhh. The trolls might hear you.
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Sportsdude on Feb 15 06 10:07
Actually I think this row is about over. Its run its course and with the new video of the british soldiers beating the iraqi protesters and the new torture video and pics from the us soldiers, I think this will be water under the bridge.  The violence seems to be staged now by right wing fanatics. I don't see regular muslims protesting anymore.
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Witch on Feb 16 06 09:36
[BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"]Itis my opinion that when the USA attacks Iran in the next few months,there will be far more support from the EU and European citizens. Itwon't be Iraq all over again.
[/DIV][/BLOCKQUOTE] Hopefully the US won't be stupid enough to try that again, although the Shrubbers don't seem to mind being stupid.

If the US does decide to invade Iran, hopefully there will be a UN Army dug in at the border to stop them. It's time the rest of the world stood up to the US and said "No more! Your bullying ends here!" I'd rejoin and put my Canadian uniform back on to stand in that trench. That would be an honorable stand indeed.
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Sportsdude on Feb 16 06 09:56
oh the US is stupid enough. I'm actually hoping they do, because there is no way in hell that they can do this with out bringing back the draft. They bring back the draft and I say "Hello Vancouver" a little earlier than planned.
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: tenkani on Feb 16 06 10:52
Affirmative, sportsdude.[/DIV]The U.S. military is unable to recruit enough cannon fodder to effectively do the job in Iraq. We are undermanned already in the middle east, engaged in a seemingly unwinnable struggle against a foe who's numbers and morale grow daily. Without a draft, the concept of invading Iran is more than foolhardy. It's psychotic. And the president who calls up the draft will be signing his own political death warrant. Whether people like to admit it or not, I think deep down most Americans know at this point that the entire middle east region, not just Iraq, is a quagmire that holds nothing but horror and defeat for us in the long run.
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: TehBorken on Feb 16 06 11:52
The U.S. military is unable to recruit enough cannon fodder to effectively do the job in Iraq. We are undermanned already in the middle east, engaged in a seemingly unwinnable struggle against a foe who's numbers and morale grow daily.

Someone made a post about this in the book thread, about how we are in a 4GW war and that we won't/can't win it. I agree with that, Iraq is just another Vietnam with sand instead of jungle.

We'll never succeed over there, and I'm not sure the current administration wants to or even cares as long as they rake in enough $$$$$$$. Then it's on to Iran for more fun in the sun.
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Sportsdude on Feb 16 06 11:59
we are in never ending war because the "enemy" is an idology. You don't fight fire with fire. We aren't beating up some country that if we kill all the people against us then the country will be free this isn't 1940's Europe.  This is a giant powder keg that can go off at any moment.  Its a ticking time bomb.  You got Syria screwing with Lebanon which is always in a civil war between the christians and jews.  You got Iran who is wanting to team up with Iraq (they are both Shi'ite nations), you got the kurds who want there own country which turkey does not want to happend and showed it would go to war over this.  You got the kingdom of saudi arabia if the crown is over thrown they might as well rename it al queda land.  You have rising anti-isreali forces in Eygpt. I could go on but I'll stop.
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: tenkani on Feb 16 06 12:01
Yeah, I remember that post. It was a good one. Bottom line, as we learned in Vietnam, you can never beat a dug in insurgency without the support of the local population. And because of the ethnic/religious/historical context of the region, it is impossible for an American military presence to ever be more than barely tolerated by the masses.

Also, and I don't remember whether I posted this here or on DV, but during the Vietnam war, military strategists stated that in order to defeat an insurgency, an occupying army needs a 10 to 1 force advantage. Since the Iraqi Intelligence Service estimates the insurgency to be between 100,000 and 200,000 strong (depending on whether you consider "part time insurgents" to be fully part of the resistance)...well, you get the picture. We would probably need a minimum of 1,000,000 troops in Iraq to properly quell the insurgency, and we are having to extend tours just to keep PRESENT troop levels. Good luck with that!
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: TehBorken on Feb 16 06 12:13
We would probably need a minimum of 1,000,000 troops in Iraq to properly quell the insurgency, and we are having to extend tours just to keep PRESENT troop levels. Good luck with that!

We'd need a soldier every 15 feet in a grid covering the entire country. And even THAT wouldn't do it.

[/div][div style="text-align: left;"]
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: tenkani on Feb 16 06 12:22
You'd think we would learn our lesson in Vietnam, or even Cuba. "They will welcome us with flowers"!

Yes, of course, because everyone in the world welcomes U.S. style democracy. And even if they did support the THEORY of what we espouse, it's just WORDS, because for every flowery speech, there is an Abu Graib or a scandal with a reconstruction contractor that negates all of the high-sounding bullshit. Americans are easily duped by our politicians. The rest of the world, not so much. In Palestine, Fatah (spelling) spoke of democracy constantly, but Hammas were the ones on the streets providing free medical care and cleaning up the garbage while Fatah grew fat and corrupt. People living day to day in dire circumstances are more influenced by the reality on the ground than by rhetoric. This is why our P.R. machine is incredibly effective at home, but falls on its face abroad.
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Tor Johnston on Feb 16 06 12:41
I read somewhere the US is supposedly attacking Iran at the end ofMarch and that they'll be using those oh-so-nifty battlefield nukes.Then again the horoscope is usually wrong, lol.

Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: tenkani on Feb 16 06 12:59
I read somewhere that nearly every member of the human race is full of disembodied alien ghosts that are responsible for all our stress and insecurity. Hmmmm...
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: kitten on Feb 16 06 01:41
I don't know how they can send so many troops overseas when they desperately need them to defend their borders against Canada!  *chuckle*
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: 49er on Feb 16 06 02:18
I don't know how they can send so many troops overseas when they desperately need them to defend their borders against Canada!  [/DIV] you mean defending the borders from young americans fleeing into Canada to avoid the draft!
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: kitten on Feb 16 06 02:54
I was thinking more of all those terrorists that buy groceries in Blaine.  I still can't get over those vigilantes patrolling the woods in Washington carrying any weapon they can get their redneck hands on!
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Tor Johnston on Feb 16 06 03:26
Iread somewhere that nearly every member of the human race is fullof disembodied alien ghosts that are responsible for all our stress andinsecurity. Hmmmm...

Oh no....Scientologists!
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: tenkani on Feb 16 06 03:52
Tor, someone wanted me to deliver a very special message to you...

(http://www.motleycrow.com/ImageHost/CoS_Worship_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Tor Johnston on Feb 16 06 03:53
Oh dear lord....Hi Tom!
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: tenkani on Feb 16 06 03:57
(http://www.motleycrow.com/ImageHost/tom-and-xenu.jpg)

[FONT color=#0000bf]Hiya Tor!! Can I interest you in a [FONT size=5]free stress test??[/FONT][/FONT]
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Tor Johnston on Feb 16 06 04:09
Tor likes his stress just the way it is, lol.
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Brent on Feb 16 06 04:16
 If Muslims aren't allowed to have cartoons/images without anarchy ,their religion sounds as crazy as scientology!      
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: tenkani on Feb 16 06 04:25
Pretty much all religions have seemingly arbitrary rules pulled out of someone's ass.[/DIV]Don't eat pork.[/DIV]Don't work on Sunday.Wear special underpants to get into heaven. Whatever. In that sense, a prohibition about depicting a religious leader isn't out of place next to the crazy rules of other mainstream religions. So the problem isn't crazy rules IMO, it's the decision that you're going to apply your crazy rules to the entire planet. I respect religions that don't proclaim to be the "one true way". I've never heard of a Zen practitioner burning down a building, blowing up a schoolbus or even shitting into a mailbox in the name of their faith.  
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Brent on Feb 16 06 04:35
Good one Tenkani, I spent most of my life not having a god and never bowing to one. I have no idea what's the truth but a jerk is a jerk and yes, organized religions seem to be for control/power mostly unfortunately.
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Update on Feb 16 06 10:52
Witch is now at -11.
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Witch on Feb 17 06 07:26
Thank you for making me your personal project Mr. "Too cowardly to admit who I am".

Your attention to my Karma score indicates that I'm doing something very, very right.
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Future Canadian on Feb 17 06 08:03
I think it would be interesting, Witch, if one had perfectly even +/- karma. How's that for representing the Balance in the Universe.[/DIV]I'll add one for you to get you closer.Which gets me thinking about the topic of this thread. There will always be good and evil in life and all degrees in between. Religious fanatics are just filling a role aren't they? If they weren't there someone else would fill their place. So there's not really much we can do but bitch about it on the internet. Is there?
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Legion on Feb 17 06 08:32
Where's all the bad karma coming from, which thread, this one?
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Witch on Feb 17 06 09:06
Where's all the bad karma coming from, which thread, this one?
I have a bad habit of making people face their own stupidity. That makes some people angry. Apparently this person believes revenge is in spending an inordinate amount of his personal time pushing the bad karma button on my posts. I can't imagine anyone caring enough about my posts to spend that much time waiting the delay between button pushes, since the forum soft won't let you do it all at once, but this person obviously thinks my posts really matter.

Oh well, I suppose the nice thing to do would be to pretend that I'm all upset about it, just so mr cowardly can feel some sense of accomplishment. "For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of bad forum karma."
Title: Karma
Post by: TehBorken on Feb 17 06 09:16
Where's all the bad karma coming from, which thread, this one?

No way to tell...Karma is pretty anonymous. Even I'd have a tough time tracking it or trying to figure out who clicked what. (I don't mean to imply that I'm some sort of computer god or "133t H/\c|<3R d00d", cuz I'm not. What I mean is that I have direct, unrestricted access to the server and raw database tables.....and even with that kind of access it would be really difficult to piece together.)
Title: Re: Three people killed over Muhammad cartoon
Post by: Witch on Feb 17 06 09:39
Which gets me thinking about the topic of this thread. There will always be good and evil in life and all degrees in between. Religious fanatics are just filling a role aren't they? If they weren't there someone else would fill their place. So there's not really much we can do but bitch about it on the internet. Is there?

 

Not all religions recognise the concepts of "good" and "evil". In those religions, actions are measured by their effects of the universe and on other people.

Personification of Good and Evil allows one to justify horrible things as being "good" simply because you are doing them to fight "evil".