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General Category => Discover Seattle! => Topic started by: Lise on Jul 20 07 07:34

Title: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Lise on Jul 20 07 07:34
Yes for all your poor little souls living in Vancouver. Expect garbage strike next week.

   [H1 class=headline]Vancouver garbage collectors issue strike notice[/H1] [H3 class=deck]Labour Relations Board ruling clears way for regional strike[/H3] [H4 class=lastupdated]Last Updated: Monday, July 16, 2007 | 12:30 PM PT [/H4]  

 The union representing 1,800 outside workers in Vancouver, including garbage collectors, has issued a 72-hour strike notice.

 The notice was issued after the Labour Relations Board approved essential service levels for CUPE local 1004. Essential service levels have also been set for 800 unionized workers in the District of North Vancouver.

 

 [A href="http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/07/16/bc-garbagestike.html?ref=rss"][FONT size=1]http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/07/16/bc-garbagestike.html?ref=rss[/FONT][/A]

Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: P.C. on Jul 21 07 08:35
So I hear on the news this morning, that they WILL NOT  allow this to happen during the 2010 games.  So I'm thinking....they won't allow our visitors to be subjected to this (as they shouldn't be) but it's ok to subject those who live there and pay taxes to it.

  Basically what they're saying is that they DO have control over this....but they will choose when it's ok or not.  This is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Lise on Jul 21 07 09:42
Everyone wants a hefty pay rise. If the politicians and MLAs can give themselves a raise, then I think everyone else who works just as hard should be given a raise. Including garbage workers.

  Though, having said that, they are paid quite well, more so than their other counterparts. Something like over $40,000 or so in a year. That's not bad.

  It is an essential service. I don't think they should hold a strike. It isn't right. Watch for next week when the stinking garbage will add up as the heat wave roll around. YUCK.    
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: kitten on Jul 21 07 11:33
It is so nice that everyone expects nice big raises with each new contract.  I only wish that people on a fixed income, such as seniors, wouldn't be stuck with escalating costs for things they need.  Food, shelter and medicine keeps going up, but income doesn't.  They keep trying to cut back on purchases like food and medicine just to survive.  It just doesn't seem fair, somehow.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Russ on Jul 21 07 01:29
They are overpaid whiners.

  I read in the papers about a few of them comparing their salaries to other private companies, saying they used to make more than the private but now they make like 3-4 dollars less, and how they havent received pay rises to match. Two main problems with that comparisson.. Do the private sector people get the same benefits, union safety net, and RRSP matching with medical coverage for the whole family; also do they have to meet tight deadlines and goals with productivity requirements?

  I disagree with you on your point PC cause I think its good that they are getting a contract to end after the 2010 olympics, as well as other sectors like health workers, bc ferries workers, and bus workers. I think they know their days are numbered, and everyone should be prepared for long walkouts after 2010, the unions are going to be broken in a major way. Which should have been done years ago so they dont have a chokehold over the government like what they enjoy now.

  Unions were and are still required to a certain degree, but they have gone too far when you compare them to the current private sector.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: P.C. on Jul 21 07 02:40
I disagree with you on your point PC cause I think its good that they are getting a contract to end after the 2010 olympics, as well as other sectors like health workers, bc ferries workers, and bus workers. I think they know their days are numbered, and everyone should be prepared for long walkouts after 2010, the unions are going to be broken in a major way. Which should have been done years ago so they dont have a chokehold over the government like what they enjoy now.

  I'm not sure we're disagreeing.  They DO have a chokehold over the government.....unless the government chooses to point out that the unions should NOT be more powerful than the government.  According to the news this morning, they stated that they (the government) would in fact not allow a strike during the Olympics, indicating that they will use the strongarm when it suits them.  I think what I'm trying to say is, that it's somewhat puzzling that it's acceptable to strike if it 'only' affects the taxpaying citizens of the city.

  *I will say though, that we're not on the same side of the picket line concerning unions. [img style="CURSOR: pointer" onclick=url(this.src); src="http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/froehlich/c020.gif" border=0]  
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Devil on Jul 23 07 08:07
I am not sure about Vancouver, but in Calgary, they make a lot more than $40,000 a year. I am sure it is close to $30.00/hr.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Schadenfreude on Jul 23 07 10:39
I have no sympathy for anyone who strikes whether they are a hockey player or a garbage collector.

Ask anyone who works for the city, you would have a difficult time finding one who does not like the working conditions.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Hobbit on Jul 23 07 04:12
Now the [A href="http://www.virtualvancouver.com/news/news-36.html"]vancouver news[/A] is that the inside workers ( eg librarians, daycare camp workers, etc. ) are also on strike. The avg for these CUPE employees is over $45,000 per year.  I hope that they negotiate a contract that takes it past 2010 so there won't be an issue with the Olympics... but I doubt the union would agree. When it's close to 2010 it'd be best for the union to threaten strikes and get the best contract settlement.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Sportsdude on Jul 24 07 12:40
as someone who has one of those 'undesirable' jobs and who can't form a union or will get fired so is technically out on his own when it comes to everything life related. More power to them. My company doesn't give a shit about me nor anybody else in their work force (a girl my age with two kids and one on the way was shot to death while delivering papers, does she get any help? nope. Although she was featured in an 'ad' in USA today. They only notice us when one of us gets killed, then they use us to sell more papers of course, how thoughtful of them.).
 
 People die doing this job and we don't have any saftety nets (first night doing this job 3 years ago I was delivering to an apartment complex ran into a drunk, then last month I almost got hit by a drunk).
 
 They just hand us a cheque every two weeks and that's it. Nothing. Somebody tried to start a union out in California and they not only fired the person who tried to start one but they also fired the entire staff at that location. Hundred's of people fired because they wanted a safety net, just something. But nope its never going to happen.

*joins the picketers*

I've never understood the anti union folks, the unions put pressure not only on the corporation's work force they represent but for all workers everywhere. If it was up to the corporations you'd have no rights, no benefits and you'd be treated like shit. It's a fact if you don't like it or not, the benefits you have as a worker came as a result of union pressure somewhere, sometime and at some place.
 
 Without the advancement of unions we'd still be stuck in a fuedalistic society where the few have all the money and the rest are poor. Because of unions we have a middle class society. How do you think all those people after the war got jobs and were able to get houses and move up to the middle class? Unions. And what's happening now? The middle class is disappearing and what's happening to the unions? They're dying off. We are going backwards.

Middle Class is shrinking and its going to disappear only because the unions have been broken by the elite. The middle class in society is a direct result of unions. Without unionized labour this continent would not be as prosperous as it is. More people rising up from the lower and poor class into the middle class meant more consumption of goods and prosperity and the baby boom generation happened. The baby boom generation did not happen just because our side won some war. lol.

The problem is nobody ever works with the unions they want to rail against it like its some evil force in society. Unions are there as a representative voice of the people at the bargining and corporate tables. As I said earlier if it were up to the companies they would throw the workers to the curb. Look at China and its 5 dollar 'ish an hour work force. Capitalist folks on Wall Street always talk about "that cheap labour in China! Oh so powerful. Big money makers."  Yeah while the leaders of the factory are making millions and eventually billions in time. The workers are barely paid barely surviving.

To me that's where the right of centre folks go wrong when they talk about capitalism. Its not 'open markets' that create wealth. Yes it will create wealth but only for a few. Real wealth happens when there are unions at the tables demanding that the workers get a share of the profits and money the ceo's and leaders are rolling in. There by creating a middle class that wants to spend, which in turn creates real wealth and prosperity.

 When this doesn't happen the right of centre free trade capitalist then don't get it when the poor go to people like Chavez, Lenin and Mao. Because the poor were promised to get a share of the money. While mostly these types of leaders or 'revolutionairies' decieve the people the problem started when the poor started to out number the rich. And then the rich never shared the wealth. People got frustrated and turned to somebody who could save them even if it was twisted and not equal like they hoped.
 
 unions create middle classes which then help run capitalist systems. Because its not the trading of goods that creates real wealth, its the unions. Always has been always will be.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: ripper on Jul 24 07 02:28
I for one am so sick and tired of these government employees. Every single one of these useless parasites should be fired and their jobs contracted out. To allow a monopoly is to allow abuse.  
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Devil on Jul 24 07 06:55
Sportsdude wrote:

I've never understood the anti union folks, the unions put pressure not only on the corporation's work force they represent but for all workers everywhere. If it was up to the corporations you'd have no rights, no benefits and you'd be treated like shit. It's a fact if you don't like it or not, the benefits you have as a worker came as a result of union pressure somewhere, sometime and at some place.
  I am not sure what it is like in your neck of the woods for unions vs. non-union positions. From my experience, I have been in union and non-union jobs. The non-union workplaces I have been at win every time. Where I am at now, a non-union place, the employees benefit tenfold!!

  Yes, I am sure unions had there place in the history books, but they have gone too far. I have seen sh*t that happened in the unions that would make you puke. The laziest workers I have ever met. Everybody is whining about "what is coming to them"...people doing the bare minimum just to get by.

  Being in a non-union environment, the decent workers get rewarded far beyond any benefit of a union. Comparing wages we pay, we will go above the union rates to keep good employees, and provide better benefits. Good employees are gold. Lazy asses need to wake up! The lazy ass workers, get booted to the curb! The decent workers don't have to put up with red tape preventing some asshat from getting canned due to his union dues being paid on time and being well represented.

  Please spare me that unions create "middle class".   That is BULLSH*T!!!

  Anyways, I am speaking from my experiences in Western Canada, I have no idea what Missourri is like?

  I hope Vancouver people take their garbage to the union leaders house, and dump it on his front lawn!
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Lise on Jul 24 07 10:28
Can't the government make them go back to work or something? Like draw up a draft or bill? Garbage collecting and other civic duties are essential service, no?

  The weirdest thing is hearing Mayor Sam Sullivan say that the strike is not his biggest priority right now. I mean, c'mon. Tell that to to the people with mountains of garbage on their curbs
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Russ on Jul 24 07 10:41
garbage collection isnt an essential service.. but meter reading and parking enforcement is ($$$$)
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Sportsdude on Jul 24 07 01:56
they did devil. The same manufacturing job before the war and before the depression that my immigrant grandfather had would not have gotten 3 kids through university, a retirement home in florida, and many trips back to Europe. Sprawl and growth in the 50's and 60's is directly correledated with the rise of manufacturing and union jobs.

Yes now some corporations are doing what unions used to do. "corporate welfare" those are the good companies. The bad ones still treat their employees like crap. For example my chiropractor pays everyone on her staff minimum wage. She makes easily 100-150,000k per year but every other trained chiropractor in her office makes 15k (minimum wage) and they work just as hard and longer in some cases then she does.


 
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Devil on Jul 24 07 02:08
I think unions suck, but to each their own. That is my opinion.

  When you get some real world experience in unions vs. non-unions, come back and we can discuss more.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Sportsdude on Jul 24 07 02:12
been in both. Just like everything nothing is perfect. There are holes in unions and holes in non unions.  
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Lil Me on Jul 24 07 02:17
And there are holes in donuts, too.  
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Devil on Jul 24 07 02:19
All I know is, the company I am with, and all our competitors that are non-union, pay much better than the union level. The benefits are better too. In BC and AB.

I seen too much crap go on in unions. Lazy bastards!!!  
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Sportsdude on Jul 24 07 02:26
yes, and it's been proven that those companies are like that way because of unions. Union leaders piss me off too, they think that they're the only ones in town still. They're not. Like I said "corporate welfare" has taken place in corporations to the point that you have better benefits working for the companies then unions.
But the difference between unions and non unions now is that the benefits only work while your working for the company. Once you retire you're on your own.
Best example is working for Toyota.
You get paid just as good as a worker at a GM plant but the benefits stop once you stop working for them. GM stays with you until the grave. GM is having problems paying health care because we in this country don't have any kind of universal health care. Canada manufacturing doesn't have this problem. Anyway that's for another thread.

 
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: P.C. on Jul 24 07 02:32
I'm with you all the way on this one Devil.  
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Devil on Jul 24 07 02:42
I don't think our company treats their employees good, "because of unions". I am pretty sure it is because we need good employees, and will do what we can to keep people happy so they don't go across the street for something better.

  I am not sure what benefit you would be talking about after you quit, or get laid off from a union job after employment is finished? CPP is for all employees. Aside from that, where I work offers a seperate pension, and/or RRSP matchings. Our rates go above unionized places too.

  Not too many topics get me going, but union talk gets my blood boiling. ha!
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: P.C. on Jul 24 07 02:50
I'm the same way Devil.  Unions had their time and their place.....but not since the 40's in my opinion.  What unions did then has been replaced with labour laws.  
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Sportsdude on Jul 24 07 02:53
  Devil wrote:
I don't think our company treats their employees good, "because of unions". I am pretty sure it is because we need good employees, and will do what we can to keep people happy so they don't go across the street for something better.
 
I am not sure what benefit you would be talking about after you quit, or get laid off from a union job after employment is finished? CPP is for all employees. Aside from that, where I work offers a seperate pension, and/or RRSP matchings. Our rates go above unionized places too.
 
Not too many topics get me going, but union talk gets my blood boiling. ha!
[hr style="width: 100%; height: 2px;"]You work for Toyota/Honda/Hyundai your association stops with them once you retire/quit. GM/Ford/Chrysler it stops until you die.

yes they did. I'm never going to win this argument with you guys but because of unions corporations are like the way they are today. Union's did their job from the 20's to 70's of pushing un-unionized corporations to give out benefits that equal or better the union jobs. The unions problems are because they're stuck in a time warp. They haven't evolved the way they should have. They tied themselves to manufacturing and they'll go down with that ship. They still act like they have power, they don't.
The problem unions will always face is that they were created back in the 1880's to make working safe and equal and fair. The problem is they've done their job, reached their goal. So now they become sort of piggish.
 
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Lise on Jul 24 07 03:34
Uhm. I vote that Devil be our Union Leader. ALL HAIL SUPREME LEADER OF THE UNIVERSE!!
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: P.C. on Jul 24 07 04:06
 Exactly what do you think they're protecting now?

  They are redundant.  They are a business unto themselves.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: ripper on Jul 25 07 12:51
P.C. wrote:
  Exactly what do you think they're protecting now?

  The lazy and incompetent employees.
   
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Devil on Jul 25 07 07:24
Sportsdude wrote:
  I'm never going to win this argument with you guys but because of unions corporations are like the way they are today.
   It is not really a win/lose argument is it? It is just our own opinions. Its all good sports!
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: purelife on Jul 25 07 08:16
Ok, just finished reading this entire thread.  

I am also agreeing with your points about the unions, Devil.  I really hate unions too.   And I have heard and seen union workers get away with so much sh*t, it's not even funny.  In a non-union environment, his a** would be fired!  I promised myself to never work for a union.  And so far, I've kept it.  
 
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Lil Me on Jul 25 07 08:49
To swing this back to the garbage strike in question- it's a power struggle that's gonna go on for a while.  City wants CUPE workers to sign a 39 month contract (instead of 36) to ensure labour throughout 2010 games.  CUPE says "you're gonna pay for it".  Pissing match ensues.  It's a stalemate right now.  Noone's negotiating yet.
 
 I think CUPE sees prosperity in the City of Vancouver with mega development and increased tax revenue.  They just want a share of the pie...most City workers can't afford to live in the City.  Not stating my personal opinion- just sharing facts.
   
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: ripper on Jul 26 07 03:07
Lil Me .

I think CUPE sees prosperity in the City of Vancouver with mega development and increased tax revenue.  They just want a share of the pie...most City workers can't afford to live in the City.  Not stating my personal opinion- just sharing facts.
   
 Are you kidding me or what. They make over $20 an hour to start. Throw in their overly generous benefits and your probably closer to $35 an hour. All this with a grade three education. As for the piece of the pie, yeah right. It's just typical union mentality. The whole world owes me a living.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Devil on Jul 26 07 09:20
That is the word I was looking for...Owed!

A lot of unionized workers are just looking for what is "owed" to them, and end up worrying about it more that actually working their jobs.

Unionized workers think the cost of living is expensive in Vancouver? Join the club.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: purelife on Jul 26 07 09:28
It's just typical union mentality. The whole world owes me a living.

 
 Agreed!  That is the mentality of most unionized workers.  Their mentality is "Well, the City is making tons of money and I'm kicked to the curb.  I want more money!"  For f*ck sakes, quit the whining.  Vancouver is expensive for EVERYONE!  

 Union workers have it made.  They should realize that they are so lucky, with all the protection they're getting even when they slack off!  Unions were good at one point to protect workers from losing their jobs, now, people abuse the system.  

Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Russ on Jul 26 07 10:06
Ive tried to keep myself out of this thread because Im on vacation but i cant..

I agree with the Devil on his findings.. as well as ripper. dammit bud I cant 'bless' you if you arent registered.

  You know the retarded fact? In the private sector if a group of employee's were to not show up for, oh say, monday to thursday.. they would be fired and replaced soonest. Wait! Is the brainless job these people do highly paid and many people are waiting to work there???? Um... I dont see the problem...

  To be honest.. TRADE unions that are NOT goverment unions are more like the European Guilds in the days past. I am of the opinion that government workers should not be allowed to be union.. and be able to chokehold the government and the people the entrust the government. I mean.. The government (say civic level) is only the middlemen put there by the taxpayers to keep their interests, the city union has demanded more money, and the taxpayers will have to be choked even more.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: ripper on Jul 26 07 11:37
Okay Russ i finally took the plunge. Bless away.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: ripper on Jul 26 07 11:53
Russ wrote:
     To be honest.. TRADE unions that are NOT goverment unions are more like the European Guilds in the days past. I am of the opinion that government workers should not be allowed to be union.. and be able to chokehold the government and the people the entrust the government. I mean.. The government (say civic level) is only the middlemen put there by the taxpayers to keep their interests, the city union has demanded more money, and the taxpayers will have to be choked even more.[/DIV]
 I totally agree. Trade unions have to work hard and must maintain a level of  competence. Civic workers are held to no such standards. They know that no matter how lazy and incompetent they are, there is no consequence. They know this because they have a monopoly. Does anyone here remember the postal workers and their arrogant union leader. Jean Claude Parrott was his name. Every year he would threaten strike on Christmas because he knew theirs was the only game in town. Ever wonder why they never go on strike anymore. Competition. From e-mails to couriers to Western Union they have become redundant. And they know it.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: 49er on Jul 26 07 12:55
what so ironic is that the people representing the city (the management) in the negotiations are civil servants themselves......ie. at a minimum, what ever COLA or benefits they give up, they themselves will enjoy
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: P.C. on Jul 27 07 07:27
I remember a couple years ago, there was some kind of strike going on....hotel workers (?)....can't remember as I pay these people little attention.  I think they worked in the pub or bar of the hotel.  Anyways, they parked themselves in the liquor store parking lot with signs like "Disgruntled Employees" etc.  My hubby went in and I waited in the car.  They were all giving me the evil eye.  As we were leaving the parking lot...waiting to pull into the traffic, one woman came up the car window and started yelling at us.  One of her comments..."You can't NOT have beer for ONE DAY....get some help"  Rather amusing comment from someone who works in a bar.

  I was livid.  Needless to say.....I would never spend a nickel in their establishment ever. It occurred to me that maybe their unhappiness in their workplace stemmed directly from their bad attitudes.  What makes them think that the world needs to support a cause that is between them and their employer?
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: ripper on Jul 27 07 08:38
P.C. wrote:
 I remember a couple years ago, there was some kind of strike going on....hotel workers (?)....can't remember as I pay these people little attention.  I think they worked in the pub or bar of the hotel.  Anyways, they parked themselves in the liquor store parking lot with signs like "Disgruntled Employees" etc.  My hubby went in and I waited in the car.  They were all giving me the evil eye.  As we were leaving the parking lot...waiting to pull into the traffic, one woman came up the car window and started yelling at us.  One of her comments..."You can't NOT have beer for ONE DAY....get some help"  Rather amusing comment from someone who works in a bar.

  I was livid.  Needless to say.....I would never spend a nickel in their establishment ever. It occurred to me that maybe their unhappiness in their workplace stemmed directly from their bad attitudes.  What makes them think that the world needs to support a cause that is between them and their employer?[/DIV]
 Because that is the nature of unions and their members. They are nothing but glorified thugs. From vandalism to outright assaults, the name of the game is intimidation and inconvenience. You were lucky they didn't either blocked you in, while preaching to you about the virtues of their "struggle", or damage your car.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: P.C. on Jul 27 07 10:11
Exactly ripper.  

  I was tempted to go to the pub when they were back to work, and give her a really good tip.  

  [FONT size=2]"REMEMBER: The TOES You Step On Today May Be Attached To The ASS You Will Have To Kiss Tomorrow"[/FONT]
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: P.C. on Jul 27 07 10:13
Oh yea.....and nice to see you have signed on.  Welcome ! (even though you were welcome before you signed on....lol)
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Lise on Jul 27 07 03:48
Wow. Did anyone see this? Volunteers were cleaning up English Bay after the fireworks only to be criticized by the union. Probaby not a good move to win the public support......

   [FONT size=6]Union criticizes beach volunteers[/FONT]

 The man representing striking garbage workers criticized 20 volunteers who cleaned up the trash at Kits Beach and English Bay yesterday after Wednesday night's fireworks.

 The volunteers, employed by Houston Landscapes, put on their gloves at 5:30 a.m. to clean up the "disaster" they say was left by the 250,000 fireworks fans.

 It took the volunteers an hour and a half to gather up more than 40 bags of refuse.

 Mike Jackson, president of CUPE 1004, representing outside workers, called the volunteer effort "unacceptable." He said the union wants city managers to deal with the mess. And, he said, he suspects the volunteers were paid.

 "I guess the big question is: why all of a sudden did they do this? Is it for their benefit?" he asked. "You can't prove that they're not getting paid by the company . . . all I'm saying is that it's just disappointing."

 [A href="http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=f3d08076-5555-4066-b9c8-2bb3f2889786&k=61560"][FONT size=1]http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=f3d08076-5555-4066-b9c8-2bb3f2889786&k=61560[/FONT][/A]

Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Sportsdude on Jul 27 07 04:22
unions aren't the problem its the leaders that give it a bad name. They're always idiots.  
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: ripper on Jul 27 07 07:06
You seem to forget Sportsdude that it's the members themselves who vote in their leader. They are the ones who dictate the personality of the union.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: P.C. on Jul 27 07 10:51
With all due respect to SD....I think he has taken his stand on this issue from his grandfather.....which in fact may have been an era that unions had a point.  
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Sportsdude on Jul 27 07 10:52
my mom's in a union.  
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Ace on Jul 27 07 10:56
 Unions keep the rates up...  You must understand that it's every employers goal to pay minimum wage.  With the cost of living in Vancouver, there's no reason anyone working full time should face living in a cardboard box...  And if you think the 'BC Labour Board' is here to fight for your rights, I've got news for you...
   
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: P.C. on Jul 27 07 10:56
Well bless her cotton socks.....what can I say.  I still think unions suck.....and that those who benefit from them have never fought for their jobs like many others.  
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Sportsdude on Jul 27 07 11:07
 oh my mom's fought for her job. She's a teacher and nobody in society is hated more after politicians then teachers. She's been threatened before by two fighting parents who's kids liked each other but showed it by hitting each other. One of them got suspended the parent got irrate stormed the classroom threatend to sue and have her fired and wanted the other kid arrested. (These were 1st graders). She has 5 autistic kids in her class all the time because she's the most senior teacher and was trained in special education. Kids who wet themselves, roll around on the floor, and attack other kids because they looked at them wrong. Then you've got the parents who want their kids taught algebra in 1st grade. (algebra isn't taught until middle school).
Anyway she had to call the union for the first time in 30 years last year. The two parents started fighting in a 'sit down meeting'. They had to be arrested.

We got word that one of her students a couple years ago tried to drown her sister in a pool and is now in a mental hospital. That's the kind of kids teachers deal with. Yet one political party here swears they're the anti christ most of the time.

I said that earlier Ace, the non union crowd wouldn't have the benefits and wages they do if it wasn't for unions. Corporations and businesses are always afraid of unions because they're spoiled little kids and want to keep the money for themselves. Just look at the CEO's of the world making 10,000 times more then the average worker in their company who works maybe 7 floors below them. So they keep pay and benefits at or better union levels not because they want to keep workers but because they're afraid of the workers getting together and unionizing.

Look at what Walmart does for example. You try to start a union you get fired, they've closed entire stores because all the workers got together and fought for workers rights.
   
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Ace on Jul 27 07 11:17
People just want a 'piece of the pie'...  It doesn't matter if you're manning the 7-11, or picking up trash (picking up trash for eight hours straight isn't much fun, I'd imagine), people need to live.  In Vancouver, where a dump costs $500,000, $8.00/hour doesn't cut it.
Now, some will argue that you should've attained post-secondary education, but not everyone is University material...
There's no reason that someone working full-time should be living below the poverty line, and unions keep the rates up...
 
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Sportsdude on Jul 27 07 11:28
 guy works a 78hr work week in Vancouver.

"  Simple arithmetic shows the dizzying shortfalls faced by
   low-wage workers, even when the calculations involve B.C.'s
   minimum wage of $8 an hour, presently the highest in the country.
   At this rate, a 37.5-hour work week brings in an even $300 per
   week, gross. That's $15,600 a year, before taxes and
   deductions-about $4,700 short of the $20,337 that Statistics
   Canada has set as its latest before-tax low-income cutoff (or
   poverty line, as most of us know it) for a person living without
   dependents in a city of more than half a million. If, however, a
   family of three is involved, as in Alam's case, that line is
   considerably higher-$31,126-and the deficit balloons to about
   $15,500 a year. Thus, even though Alam's efforts entailed a
   punishing 78 hours of work a week (a full 100 hours, counting
   travel time), and hourly pay from one job that was more than a
   dollar above minimum wage, his earnings placed him and his family
   a mere $2,300 a year above the poverty line."
[a href="http://www.straight.com/article/working-for-a-living"]
http://www.straight.com/article/working-for-a-living[/a]


   
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Ace on Jul 27 07 11:29
 And remember this, people...  When your employer says, "We can't give you a raise, as profit margins are slim."
Nine times out of ten, he's laughing all the way to the bank...
   
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Ace on Jul 27 07 11:31
The money is there!  It's just nobody wants to share anymore...  
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: P.C. on Jul 27 07 11:31
Ummm...Ace?....these people are making WAY beyond $8 an hour.  They are making the kind of wage that kids who have spent the kind of money to take them through 3 to 5 years of university for careers might hope to make.  It's out of whack....due to the unions.

  When kids are making $27 an hour to stock shelves in your local supermarket.....there is something drastically wrong.    
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Sportsdude on Jul 27 07 11:31
  [table border="1" cellpadding="2"][tbody][tr][th colspan="6" class="title"]Low-Income Cut-Offs (LICOs), 2001[/th][/tr] [tr][th] [/th][th colspan="5"]Population of Community of Residence[/th][/tr] [tr][th]Family Size[/th][th]500,000 +[/th][th]100,000-499,999[/th][th]30,000-99,999[/th][th]Less than 30,000*[/th][th]Rural[/th][/tr] [tr][th]1[/th][td] $18,841 [/td][td] $16,160 [/td][td] $16,048 [/td][td] $14,933 [/td][td] $13,021[/td][/tr] [tr][th]2[/th][td] $23,551 [/td][td] $20,200 [/td][td] $20,060 [/td][td] $18,666 [/td][td] $16,275 [/td][/tr] [tr][th]3[/th][td] $29,290 [/td][td] $25,123 [/td][td] $24,948 [/td][td] $23,214 [/td][td] $20,242 [/td][/tr] [tr][th]4[/th][td] $35,455 [/td][td] $30,411 [/td][td] $30,200 [/td][td] $28,101 [/td][td] $24,502[/td][/tr] [tr][th]5[/th][td] $39,633[/td][td] $33,995[/td][td] $33,758 [/td][td] $31,412 [/td][td] $27,390 [/td][/tr] [tr][th]6[/th][td] $43,811 [/td][td] $37,579 [/td][td] $37,317 [/td][td] $34,722 [/td][td] $30,278 [/td][/tr] [tr][th]7 +[/th][td] $47,988 [/td][td] $41,163 [/td][td] $40,875 [/td][td] $38,033 [/td][td] $33,166[/td][/tr][/tbody][/table]
that's from 2001.
minimum wage job by yourself won't get you to 18.8k that you would need in Vancouver.
   
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: P.C. on Jul 27 07 11:34
SD....what the heck are you reading into that?  That's not the kind of wages union people are making.  That may be what those jobs are WORTH....but unions drive the wages up for jobs that a chimpanzee could do.....just because.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Sportsdude on Jul 27 07 11:38
currently they make anywhere between 18 and 24 dollars an hour

[a href="http://www.gvrd.bc.ca/labour/agreements0002/InOut/VanCupe1004City0002.pdf"]http://www.gvrd.bc.ca/labour/agreements0002/InOut/VanCupe1004City0002.pdf[/a]


 
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Ace on Jul 27 07 11:40
 "When kids are making $27 an hour to stock shelves in your local supermarket.....there is something drastically wrong."

Those days are finished, P.C.  And I agree, in the past some were overpaid to stock shelves...
But if I worked for the City of Vancouver, or any outfit for that matter, I wouldn't pick up peoples trash all day for $8.00/hour.  In fact, I wouldn't do it for less than $20/hour...  I walked up to a construction site a couple of years ago as a labourer, and they paid me $20.00/hour to stand around for half the day, so there is no way I'd pick up peoples garbage for less, factoring the cost of living in Van...
                                                                                                                       [table style="table-layout: fixed;" border="0" width="100%"][tbody][tr][td colspan="2" class="smalltext" align="left" width="100%"]                         
[/td][/tr][/tbody][/table]  
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Sportsdude on Jul 27 07 11:41
 chimps can build buildings, collect the trash, build cars, drive and take care of public transportation lines, fly planes since when?

   
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Sportsdude on Jul 27 07 11:42
  if you read the contract on page 55. The guys picking up the trash make 18 to 19 dollars an hour.
nobody makes 27 an hour stocking shelves they make 8hr. And you'd be surprised I could never get a job at the grocery stores here, all the 40/50 somethings who needed a second job to pay the bills got those jobs. Teen unemployment is high in the states and I bet Canada too.
 

[table border="1" cellpadding="2"][tbody][tr][th colspan="6" class="title"]Before-Tax Low-Income Cut-Offs (LICOs), 2004[/th][/tr] [tr][th] [/th][th colspan="5"]Population of Community of Residence[/th][/tr]  [tr][th]Family Size[/th][th]500,000 +[/th][th]100,000-499,999[/th][th]30,000-99,999[/th][th]Less than 30,000*[/th][th]Rural[/th][/tr] [tr][th]1[/th][td] $20,337 [/td][td] $17,515 [/td][td] $17,407 [/td][td] $15,928 [/td][td] $14,000[/td][/tr] [tr][th]2[/th][td] $25,319 [/td][td] $21,804 [/td][td] $21,669 [/td][td] $19,828 [/td][td] $17,429 [/td][/tr] [tr][th]3[/th][td] $31,126 [/td][td] $26,805 [/td][td] $26,639 [/td][td] $24,375 [/td][td] $21,426 [/td][/tr] [tr][th]4[/th][td] $37,791 [/td][td] $32,546 [/td][td] $32,345 [/td][td] $29,596 [/td][td] $26,015[/td][/tr] [tr][th]5[/th][td] $42,862[/td][td] $36,912[/td][td] $36,685 [/td][td] $33,567 [/td][td] $29,505 [/td][/tr] [tr][th]6[/th][td] $48,341 [/td][td] $41,631 [/td][td] $41,375 [/td][td] $37,858 [/td][td] $33,278 [/td][/tr] [tr][th]7 +[/th][td] $53,821 [/td][td] $46,350 [/td][td] $46,065 [/td][td] $42,150 [/td][td] $37,050[/td][/tr][/tbody][/table]
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: P.C. on Jul 27 07 11:53
if you read the contract on page 55. The guys picking up the trash make 18 to 19 dollars an hour.
nobody makes 27 an hour stocking shelves they make 8hr. And you'd be surprised I could never get a job at the grocery stores here, all the 40/50 somethings who needed a second job to pay the bills got those jobs. Teen unemployment is high in the states and I bet Canada too.


  Well SD...perhaps what unions do in the states is different than what they do here.  Nobody here make $8 stocking shelves.  And YES....there was a time....due to unions...that kids were making $27 an hour stocking shelves.  I KNOW this to be true.  It had nothing to do with the JOB....and everything to do with the unions.  They cast an urealistic haze onto the actual WORTH of a job.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Sportsdude on Jul 28 07 12:03
 28k a year. there's the school tutition paid off if he or she is going to school. If not then he or she will barely be able to afford an apartment in Vancouver.


[a href="http://startnow.workfutures.bc.ca/pdfs_en/NOC6622.pdf"]http://startnow.workfutures.bc.ca/pdfs_en/NOC6622.pdf[/a]

About $8-$22/hour. If this is a first job, you
may make $6/hour for the first three
months of full-time work.

teens first job, won't be making much. And teens never work full time. They've got school.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
[h1 class="title"][a href="http://www.straight.com/article-94156/mothers-under-siege"]                           Mothers under siege[/a][/h1](http://www.straight.com/files/images/FEA_SingleMom_2059.jpg)
Raven Prince works hard to create a loving home for her kids, Tatiana and Terence, but she could face a daycare crisis this fall.
Some say the B.C. government has violated the human rights of single moms with its punitive social policies.[/p] Raven Prince has a job at a bank, doesn't collect welfare, and works hard to provide a good life for her two kids. However, during an interview in her tidy East Vancouver apartment, she told the Georgia Straight that she still senses a stigma associated with being a single aboriginal mom when she goes out with her children. She said that in some stores, she feels like she's under surveillance.[/p]"People are always staring," Prince said. "I always feel singled out or something—when I'm going shopping, especially. I always feel like I have to buy certain stuff just so they don't think less of me."[/p]That's not her greatest anxiety, though. The 26-year-old single mom has been on a waiting list for more than a year for daycare for her three-year-old son, Terence. This September, she will also need after-school care for her five-year-old daughter, Tatiana, who will be starting Grade 1. She won't find out until August if Terence has been accepted.[/p]Prince has been able to work 22.5 hours per week at the bank because her mother has been looking after Terence and Tatiana during the day. "My mom baby-sits; I'm lucky to have her," Prince said. "But now she's going to go back to school in September. Now it's a matter of finding someone who is going to watch him."[/p]Like Prince, thousands of single parents across the province struggle with trying to earn a decent income, finding daycare, and ensuring their kids get a good start in life. But new data from Statistics Canada show that whereas the incomes of Vancouver single fathers have increased in recent years, the incomes of single mothers are in decline. This has some women's rights and antipoverty activists claiming that B.C. Liberal government policies discriminate against single mothers, who are among the poorest citizens of the province. In a curious twist, the premier and the attorney general were both raised by single mothers.[/p]Prince said that her children's father has another family and she isn't receiving family-maintenance payments from him. Each day, she leaves her subsidized Native housing project in East Vancouver and takes the bus to work on the city's West Side. The closest child-care centre is several blocks from her home. It makes her wish she could have attended a recent demonstration for daycare in Vancouver.[/p]"I would love to have been at that protest, saying, 'Yeah, we need daycare,'" she said with a smile. "But I had to be at work. I can't afford to take a day off."[/p]If there's nobody to care for her kids, Prince might have no alternative but to go on welfare. As a single parent "expected to work" with two children, she would receive $1,036 per month in social assistance. [/p]The current welfare rate is far lower than Prince's annual income, which clears $20,000. It's also significantly lower than the $1,368 per month that a single employable parent with two kids would get if the B.C. Liberal government had indexed the welfare rate to inflation, according to a welfare-advocacy coalition called Raise the Rates.[/p]
"In late May, Statistics Canada reported that half of the single-parent families in Canada earned less than $30,000 in 2005. The median total income of single mothers in Vancouver in 2005 was $27,700, down from $29,000 the previous year. The median total income for male single parents in Vancouver, on the other hand, went up from $41,900 to $45,500 over the same period."
[a href="http://www.straight.com/article-94156/mothers-under-siege"]
http://www.straight.com/article-94156/mothers-under-siege[/a]


   
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: ripper on Jul 28 07 01:47
Ace wrote:
And remember this, people...  When your employer says, "We can't give you a raise, as profit margins are slim."
Nine times out of ten, he's laughing all the way to the bank...
 
 Typical union mentality. Maybe the fact that he/she is "laughing all the way to the bank" is well deserved. You seem to feel that the owner and the workers should be equal partners. Never mind that it was the owners who put up their own money, many times their life's savings, to start said enterprise. They take all the risks. They spend countless slaving away to start their business. When their employees go home they are still there.When business is slow the employees still must be paid even if he/she must take out a loan to keep afloat. And for all their troubles they should be equal partners with their employees. Yeah right.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Ace on Jul 28 07 01:59
I've made previous employers thousands of dollars in profits in one day.  In fact, one's worth many millions!  Sad but true, that prick wouldn't give me a buck or two raise...  The money is there, don't fool yourself.  
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Ace on Jul 28 07 02:04
The problem is, people get greedy.  I call it the 'Jimmy Pattison Syndrome'...
The more you make, the greedier you get.  It becomes a mental illness when you have more than you could ever spend, yet still feel compelled to find new ways to screw over your employees..,.
 
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: ripper on Jul 28 07 02:10
Whether the money is there is not the point. We have all worked in crappy jobs with long hours and shitty pay. However your employer does not owe you a living. You do. I obviously don't know what you do or what your education level is. Nor am i here to deride you. However, if you are so unhappy with your current situation, maybe it's time to quit. Go back to school. Earn a degree or learn a trade. Take control of your own life.ed  
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Ace on Jul 28 07 02:14
I'm not unhappy at all, my friend.  In fact, I rarely complain...  I'm just sick of watching companies earn record profits while finding new ways to screw over their employees...  
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: ripper on Jul 28 07 02:23
Yes some companies are earning record profits. And yes some companies screw over their employees, most notably banks. However it's nothing personal. It's strictly business. The CEO's are under tremendous pressure to cut expenses and maximize profits. And this pressure comes from people like you and me. Shareholders of said companies. Capitalism at it's best and worst.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Hobbit on Jul 30 07 02:44
The mayor doesn't want to get his hands dirty getting messed up in all this. That way he can keep the union vote and the rest of the public's vote. If it looks like he takes sides at all then he's likely to lose votes. Better to take hands-off approach and then if everything goes bad blame someone else.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Garbage in Calgary on Jul 30 07 10:06
I,m a garbage man in calgary and I can tell you we don't make $30 a hour ! I make less then $20 a hour.   The City of Calgary is the only full time job I have ever worked that Does'nt pay for any of my Alberta health care. Also if it was such a easy and slack job picking up garbage why cant they keep people, They hired 40 people this summer and over 30 have quit. I guess picking up 10 -18 thousand kilograms a garbage by your self  a day is'nt that easy. So next time you call a garbage man lazy go and try his job and keep your mouth shut !      
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: 49er on Jul 30 07 10:22
my garbageman doesn't even gets out of the truck.  He pulls up next to the garbage, recycle or lawn clipping can and operate the mechanical arm which graps the can and dumps the contents into the truck.  How do they do it in Vancouver?
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: garbage in calgary on Jul 30 07 10:27
49er wrote:
 my garbageman doesn't even gets out of the truck.  He pulls up next to the garbage, recycle or lawn clipping can and operate the mechanical arm which graps the can and dumps the contents into the truck.  How do they do it in Vancouver?[/DIV]
 In Calgary it is all hand collection on automation.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: garbage in calgary on Jul 30 07 10:29
garbage in calgary wrote:
49er wrote:
 my garbageman doesn't even gets out of the truck.  He pulls up next to the garbage, recycle or lawn clipping can and operate the mechanical arm which graps the can and dumps the contents into the truck.  How do they do it in Vancouver?[/DIV]
 In Calgary it is all hand collection on automation.[/DIV]
 Sorry. thats no automation
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Russ on Jul 30 07 10:32
We use the arms 49er.
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Sportsdude on Jul 30 07 10:34
darn I should move my new thread into this one.  
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: P.C. on Jul 30 07 10:37
Calgary man....I don't think for a minute that it's an easy job.....nor a particularly pleasant one.

It is certainly a necessary one, that's for sure.

  I read back to the beginning, and I don't think anyone was calling garbage collectors lazy.  There was a reference to unions sometimes protecting the lazy. [img style="CURSOR: pointer" onclick=url(this.src); src="http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/froehlich/c020.gif" border=0]  
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Russ on Jul 30 07 10:39
Sorry correction 49er.. we use the arms for garbage. But for newspapers, plastics, glass bottles.. recyclables; they are collected by hand in trucks.  
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: Sportsdude on Jul 30 07 10:40
are guys get out and run.  
Title: Re: Vancouver Garbage Strike
Post by: |ProjectoR| on Jul 31 07 01:55
i say nice! ppl are fed up with rising product prices and same old wages, cosmic shifts of 2007 underway, make it count, go agianst the bs in society.

  [A href="http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t119/ProjectoR11/bertjanssen-mh2007-13gr.gif"]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t119/ProjectoR11/bertjanssen-mh2007-13gr.gif[/A]

  lol spam word is BUCKET