It's almost laughable how all these sanctimonious Christion groups are so threatened by gay people. Almost.
[hr style="width: 100%; height: 2px;"]Reaction grows to gay student's expulsion
OTHER CUMBERLANDS STUDENTS EXPRESS HURT, CONFUSION
[font size="1"]By Jamie Gumbrecht
HERALD-LEADER CULTURE WRITER[/font]
The news that his boyfriend, Jason Johnson, was expelled from University of the Cumberlands was still sinking in when Zac Dreyer sat at a computer to spread the news. "He is being asked to leave the university because he is gay," Dreyer wrote Thursday on the Web site MySpace.com, the same site school officials used to confront Johnson. "Help get the story out there so that all the gays and lesbians at the university will no longer have to live in secrecy, in fear of having their dreams crushed in front of them."[/p] Within a few hours, friends and students at the small Baptist college in Williamsburg were commenting in blogs about Johnson's expulsion. The buzz grew over the weekend, and by yesterday the issue drew reaction from legislators in Frankfort and on gay advocacy organizations' Web sites nationwide.[/p] Johnson, a sophomore majoring in theater arts, was expelled from the university Thursday because he declared online that he is gay. In a statement released last week, the university's president, Jim Taylor said students are held to a "higher standard" and that "students know the rules before they come to this institution."[/p] But a copy of the student handbook provided by the university confirmed the policy was not spelled out in 2003-04, when Johnson chose to attend. The school did not provide a copy of the policy for the 2004-05 school year. The 2005-06 student handbook says: "Any student who engages in or promotes sexual behavior not consistent with Christian principles (including sex outside marriage and homosexuality) may be suspended or asked to withdraw."[/p] School officials said that although the 2003-04 policy did not explicitly mention homosexuality, it did say that students must "conduct themselves, on and off the campus, in a manner which is consistent with the objectives of the College and with its standards of conduct."[/p] After Dreyer's Web post on Thursday, students' blogs showed mixed reactions. Some said they don't like homosexual behavior, but they didn't think the school should expel people just a few weeks before the end of the term. Others wrote that rules must be followed, but they would miss their friend, who was supposed to stage-manage a production of As You Like It last week. Some were furious, cursing at the university. Some were hurt, praying for God to guide them through a complicated time. The expulsion, some wrote, is tearing the campus apart.[/p] Renee Kuder, a University of the Cumberlands senior and a friend of Johnson, says many students worry they'll be punished if they discuss the case online or in the media. Some students declined to comment for this story, or did not return messages.[/p] The school did not comment on the issue yesterday.[/p] But some students are publicly questioning the school's values, Kuder said. Many wore shirts yesterday with "God loves my gay friends" printed on them and are waiting for Johnson to let them know the best response to the university.[/p] "They're being hypocritical, by Christian standards," Kuder said. "If we love each other, accept each other for who we are, why are they kicking him out? I almost feel like they're trying to mold us, me, into a person that I wouldn't want to be.[/p] "There's a letter in the student handbook that says everyone is a unique creation of God, you're special, we care about you. They didn't care if he didn't have a place to go. They could have pretty much ruined his life."[/p] Johnson was confronted by two school officials Thursday. They showed Johnson his profile on MySpace.com, where he wrote about his boyfriend, then showed him the 2005-06 student handbook policy.[/p] Johnson left the meeting with a letter that required him to leave the university that night. His parents, who helped him choose the Baptist school two years earlier, were "outraged," he said. Along with Dreyer, who attends Eastern Kentucky University, they helped him move out of the dorm within hours.[/p] "I was upset to the point that I couldn't speak. I didn't even want to ask about it," said Johnson, a Lafayette High School graduate, who is considering attending the University of Kentucky or Eastern Kentucky University next fall. "I wanted to be out of there."[/p] Johnson, who is considering legal action against the university, said students shouldn't question their faith, but they should question their personal beliefs.[/p] "What I would hope is that their faith is renewed because people are standing up for what they believe in," Johnson said. "It has strengthened my resolve, my beliefs, my faith, seeing the love and support."[/p]
When they got into this university they probably had to sign a contract proving they were good god fearing people. Contracts are contracts I guess...
That's a tough one.
I guess I don't understand homosexuals who choose to remain tied to a religion that brands them as sinners and who's holy book recommends their execution. Gays shouldn't have to "live in secrecy", but on the other hand, demanding that a Christian school accept students who are gay is a bit naive IMO.
Why do homosexuals feel they have to announce to the world they are homosexual?
tenkani wrote:
That's a tough one.
I guess I don't understand homosexuals who choose to remain tied to a religion that brands them as sinners and who's holy book recommends their execution. Gays shouldn't have to "live in secrecy", but on the other hand, demanding that a Christian school accept students who are gay is a bit naive IMO.[/DIV]
No two ways about it - it's just not Chrtistian (at least not in my interpretation of the word).
Well, that's the problem. The old testament demands the execution of homosexuals, while Jesus preaches a philosophy of compassion. But even Jesus would ask that a sinner cease sinning and not allow the sin to become their identity.
I think the anti-gay bias in the bible is nonsense, but the fundamentalist postition on the issue actually makes more sense than those Christians who state that anti-gay sentiment is "non-christian". If you're going to claim that the bible is your holy book, it's a little silly to turn around and say that it's Ok to be gay.
tenkani wrote:
Well, that's the problem. The old testament demands the execution of homosexuals, while Jesus preaches a philosophy of compassion. But even Jesus would ask that a sinner cease sinning and not allow the sin to become their identity.
I think the anti-gay bias in the bible is nonsense, but the fundamentalist postition on the issue actually makes more sense than those Christians who state that anti-gay sentiment is "non-christian". If you're going to claim that the bible is your holy book, it's a little silly to turn around and say that it's Ok to be gay.[/DIV]
Trouble is that so many people think that the Old Testament is a work of the Christian rather than the pre-Christian era. Incidentally, how does one define sin?
If, as a Christian, you're going to dismiss the old testament, maybe you need to look for a new religion.
The Ten Commandment were also "pre-Christian". Do you dismiss them as well??[/DIV]
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination"
(Leviticus 18:22).
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them"
(Leviticus 20:13).
There are plenty of gray areas when it comes to Christian dogma. One would think, however, that if a sin results in an immediate death sentence, there's not a whole lot of wiggle room. How does, this is an abomination, put them to death, somehow mutate into it's Ok to be gay?
I suppose my issue stems from the fact that there are so many pseudo-Christians who continue to support this religion, seemingly unconcerned that their holy book is filled with genocide, hatred and intolerance. Even if these "Christians" don't act on the hateful words in their book, they add their names and tacit support to those who continue to claim that America is 75% Christian and use this in their attempt to set up a theocracy.
"Incidentally, how does one define sin?"
[FONT size=4]Where's the beer?[/FONT]
[FONT size=4]Sin the fridge.[/FONT]
close the door. i'm dressing.
Woops, missed that one.
Sin is disobedience to god. For instance, if your god has commanded that anyone who commits X act shall be put to death, it's fair to assume that he doesn't want you to do it. If you go ahead and do it, you've sinned.
In the Christian faith, all sins but one are forgivable, but if you sin, and continue to sin, and make that sin part of your identity, don't expect forgiveness and acceptance until you've stopped sinning.
tenkani wrote:
Woops, missed that one.
Sin is disobedience to god. For instance, if your god has commanded that anyone who commits X act shall be put to death, it's fair to assume that he doesn't want you to do it. If you go ahead and do it, you've sinned.
In the Christian faith, all sins but one are forgivable, but if you sin, and continue to sin, and make that sin part of your identity, don't expect forgiveness and acceptance until you've stopped sinning.[/DIV]
Why are some Christians apparently more obsessed with sin than love?
From the Simpsons Quote-a-thon:
Homer: Oh, everything's too damned expensive these days. This bible cost 15 bucks! And talk about a preachy book! Everybody's a sinner! Except this guy.
"Why are some Christians apparently more obsessed with sin than love?"
Good f*cking question. Maybe because it's easier for a religious leader to manipulate a person through fear than through love? Despite all the high-sounding bullshit we've been spoon-fed, fear is a much more potent drive than any of the "higher emotions". Love simply can't kick your reptile brain into high gear like fear can.
Sorry, my philosophy when it comes to this stuff is pretty cynical.
LOL @ Mr. S.
Everything I needed to know about religion I learned from cartoons (http://discoverseattle.net/forums/richedit/smileys/Teasing/5.gif)
Sin is disobedience to god. For instance, if your god has commanded that anyone who commits X act shall be put to death, it's fair to assume that he doesn't want you to do it. If you go ahead and do it, you've sinned.
Pardon my simpicity in this debate, but isn't this the ultimate hypocracy ???? Is it not considered a sin to take the life of another being ?
Homer: If the Bible has taught us nothing else -- and it hasn't -- it's that girls should stick to girl sports, such as hot oil wrestling, foxy boxing, and such and such.
P.C. wrote:
Sin is disobedience to god. For instance, if your god has commanded that anyone who commits X act shall be put to death, it's fair to assume that he doesn't want you to do it. If you go ahead and do it, you've sinned.
Pardon my simpicity in this debate, but isn't this the ultimate hypocracy ???? Is it not considered a sin to take the life of another being ?
Not by the American government
Taking a human life is not, in itself a sin according to the Christian faith.
The commandment "thou shalt not kill" was incorrectly translated. The Hebrew word for "murder" became "kill", thus changing the meaning.
Read the old testament. God commands his followers to kill thousands of women and children. Obviously, killing is not inherently sinful.
I am so confused on this topic. I have an amazing friend in Los Angeles. He is openly gay and is very Christian. Stained glass picture of Jesus on his front room living room. He said there is actually a large gay Christian group in LA. I don't know much about it though?
Yup. There's also an extremely large and active gay Christian community in San Francisco.
I heard a gay man speak about it and his persepective (which may or may not be representative of others) was that he had been raised Christian and it simply felt like home. The ceremonies were beautiful and he did not want to give it up. Thus the rise of churches willing to accept self-identified, active homosexuals into their ranks.
I'm torn on the issue. I applaud their acceptance of gays, yet on a philosophical level, again, the fundies actually have a more rational (assuming you believe the bible is the word of God) perspective.
I think fundies are generally out of their minds, but demanding that they accept gays into their schools simply doesn't make sense. And again, as a homosexual, why would you want to attend a school that considers you to be sinful and walking the path of damnation?
Well my church the ELCA, has gay and lesbian pastors. Heck, our sister church in Canada ELCIC blesses same sex unions. We believe Jesus was accepting of everyone. The only problem with the ELCA is that they won't adress the gay and lesbian issue nationally fearing backlash from conservative media and a skism by the rural ELCA churches that don't necessarily believe in that issue. The ELCA and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada (ELCIC) are the only reason why I still believe. The rest of the christian sects in my opinion have been hijacked by evangelicals types and stubborn mules who fear change.
Hmmm, I don't believe the Jesus portrayed in the bible was accepting of everyone. He was willing to forgive those who were willing to change. If a sinner decided to live a "life of sin", however, do you really think Jesus would just shrug and pat him or her on the head?
Forgiveness and tolerance are not the same thing. A church should be willing to forgive sin, but to ask it to tolerate sin simply because the sin has become acceptable to the non-believing community doesn't exactly make sense.
Again, I have to ask, how does a sin go from being punishable by death to being tacitly condoned by a church, and don't the fundies have a point in declaring such churches to be heading in a dangerously secular direction?
I'm obviously taking the devil's advocate position here, but I think it's a valid question nontheless.
The ELCIC has an about us section that explains this really well. Basically, we take the bible for what it is a book. We are not literalists. For instance we have women pastors. I don't see that many other church organisations having women pastors.
Cool beans. So if the bible is not to be taken literally, you guys consider it to be metaphor? What is the symbolic meaning of demanding that homosexuals be put to death?
First of all, Christian Tolerance is an oxymoron at best.
I don't know the Bible well enough to make any references to it.....but I have noticed the interpretation of it hugely distorted. How else can there be so many sects that have such different beliefs and behaviours and yet all be following the same book.
The thing I remember about the early christians (read Gnostics) is that the body is a part of the devils world and something to be rid of lickity split. There were some early sects that wouldn't procreate on these grounds so abstinence was obviously the key. Maybe it's still the key?
That's the problem, P.C. Too many possible interpretations. So it's metaphor. Or parts of it are. Which parts? What if Jesus Christ himself is a metaphor? What if the bible is simply a book of geneology, stories and a sprinkling of history, meant to teach moral lessons? What if some of those moral lessons are not just outdated, but according to everything we now know, evil?
Yeah, Legion. Some of my ancestors used to have sex with a sheet in between them to prevent unnecessary contact of flesh. If that's the road to enlightenment, I don't want any part of it :(
[LI]Interpretation of Scripture: Generally speaking, ELCA clergy are less likely to take the [A title="Biblical inerrancy" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy"]Bible literally[/A] than those in the LCMS or WELS. ELCA seminaries and colleges generally teach a form of [A title="Higher Criticism" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_Criticism"]historical-critical[/A] method of biblical analysis, an approach that, broadly speaking, seeks to understand the scriptures and the process of canon formation with reference to historical and social context. For a brief description, see [A class="external text" title=http://www.elca.org/questions/Results.asp?recid=17 href="http://www.elca.org/questions/Results.asp?recid=17"]What is the Bible?[/A] on the ELCA website. [/LI] Comparison of LCMS and ELCA [SPAN class=reference][SUP class=plainlinksneverexpand id=ref_LCMSELCA][A class="external autonumber" title=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_in_America#endnote_LCMSELCA href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_in_America#endnote_LCMSELCA"][1][/A][/SUP][/SPAN]
[TABLE class=wikitable] [TBODY] [TR] [TH]Number[/TH] [TH]LCMS[/TH] [TH]ELCA[/TH][/TR] [TR] [TD]1[/TD] [TD]Believe in triune God[/TD] [TD]Same[/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD]2[/TD] [TD]Accept Lutheran Confessions as true teachings of biblical faith[/TD] [TD]Same[/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD]3[/TD] [TD]Believe that God comes to us through the Word and the sacraments[/TD] [TD]Same[/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD]4[/TD] [TD]Teach justification by grace through faith[/TD] [TD]Same[/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD]5[/TD] [TD]Believe that the Bible should not be subject to higher critical methods[/TD] [TD]Believe that the Bible can speak effectively through the use of higher critical study[/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD]6[/TD] [TD]Believe that the Bible restricts women from certain church positions including ordained ministry[/TD] [TD]Believes the Bible permits, even encourages, full participation by women in the life of the church[/TD][/TR] [TR] [TD]7[/TD] [TD]High degree of doctrinal agreement necessary before fellowship is possible[/TD] [TD]Agreement on a more basic level is sufficient for fellowship[/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]
tenkani wrote: Again, I have to ask, how does a sin go from being punishable by death to being tacitly condoned by a church, and don't the fundies have a point in declaring such churches to be heading in a dangerously secular direction?
Lol, this kind of question makes most True Believers squirm like they've had a hot-sauce enema. (//forums/richedit/smileys/Happy/14.gif)
The problem, as I see it, is mixing critical thinking with matters of faith.
In terms of critical thinking, the entire Christian house of cards is built on a crumbling foundation to put it mildly.
So the comments in the bible about gays are metaphor, not to be taken literally. So, perhaps is the worldwide flood. Well, what about the existence of god himself? There is not more evidence for the Christian god than there is for the evil of homosexuality. It's ALL faith-based. You choose to use critical thinking to remove inconvenient commandments from your holy book, yet somehow the light of rationality never falls on the very foundation of your belief.
[LI]Role of women: Unlike most of the other Lutheran denominations in the United States, the ELCA ordains women as pastors, a practice that all three of its predecessor churches adopted in the 1970s. Some have become synod bishops since the formation of the ELCA. [/LI] [UL] [LI]Homosexuality: The church has officially welcomed [A title=Homosexuality href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality"]homosexuals[/A] within its congregations since 1991. However, its stance and ongoing deliberations on homosexuality have been the subject of sharp clashes. Groups such as [A title="Lutherans Concerned/North America" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutherans_Concerned/North_America"]Lutherans Concerned/North America[/A] are presently advocating for greater strides toward full acceptance and equality for gay men and lesbians, while groups such as [A title="Solid Rock Lutherans" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_Rock_Lutherans"]Solid Rock Lutherans[/A] seek to reverse moves in this direction. [/LI][/UL] [DL] [DD]In language first proposed by the church's Conference of Bishops in 1993 and formally adopted by the Churchwide Assembly in 2005, the ELCA holds "there is basis neither in Scripture nor tradition for the establishment of an official ceremony by this church for the blessing of a homosexual relationship. We, therefore, do not approve such a ceremony as an official action of this church's ministry." However, in acknowledgement of the complex nature of this issue, the Churchwide Assembly also expressed its "[trust in] pastors and congregations to discern ways to provide faithful pastoral care for all to whom they minister." Though some on both sides of the issue have found this position to be tacit permission for same-sex blessings by individual pastors, no allowance is made for such blessing services in the church's governing documents, and the Churchwide Assembly declined to change church policy to provide for such services. [/DD][/DL] [DL] [DD]The ELCA does not presently permit the rostering of men or women in same-sex relationships. A resolution considered by the Churchwide Assembly would have generally maintained this stance, while providing a process for exceptions to be made for those in a committed homosexual relationship, on a case-by-case basis. After much debate, the resolution failed to meet the two-thirds supermajority required for its adoption, and was defeated. [/DD][/DL] This was the biggest cop out of all time, imo. The fact is that we do have lesbian and gay pastors and we have blessed gay relationships. The church just didn't want to have another skism like the one between us and the Missouri Synod back in '72. So its more or less up to the churches to decide what to do.
[LI]Creationism/evolution: The ELCA does not have an official position on [A title=Creationism href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism"]creation[/A] or [A title=Evolution href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution"]evolution[/A]. And never will because we don't believe like the literalist Missouri Synod who believe god made the world in 7 24 hour days. Because the meaning of the word that the hebrew text uses for days actually means inifinite amount of time. Hence, God took his time in making the Earth. (Enter evolution)
[LI]Abortion: The issue of [A title=Abortion href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion"]abortion[/A] has also been contentious within the ELCA. The church, in documents approved in 1991, set out its position on the matter as follows. The ELCA describes itself as "a community supportive of life," and encourages women to explore alternatives to abortion such as [A title=Adoption href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adoption"]adoption[/A]. However, the church states that there are certain circumstances under which a decision to end a pregnancy can be "morally responsible." These include cases where the pregnancy "presents a clear threat to the physical life of the woman," situations where "the pregnancy occurs when both parties do not participate willingly in sexual intercourse," and "circumstances of extreme fetal abnormality, which will result in severe suffering and very early death of an infant." Regardless of the reason, the ELCA opposes abortion when "a fetus is developed enough to live outside a uterus with the aid of reasonable and necessary technology." Thats the most liberal position you can get in christianity.
[/LI]
LOL. I'm not trying to torture true believers, but I don't buy into the P.C. agenda that informs us that all beliefs are equal and deserving of respect.
tenkani wrote:
The problem, as I see it, is mixing critical thinking with matters of faith.
To me, "faith" is mostly used as a way to get people to buy into stuff they'd never believe in any other way. It's used as a way to suspend (healthy) disbelief.
If airplanes were built with principles based on 'faith' they'd be falling out of the sky like snowflakes in a blizzard.
Your particular church does, indeed, sound fairly liberal and open-minded.
I'm impressed, although personally I'd lean more towards the Unitarian route and so avoid being tied to a holy book that's chock full of god-inspired genocide, rape and all manner of things we commonly consider to be evil.
tenkani wrote:
[div style="font-style: italic;"]LOL. I'm not trying to torture true believers, but I don't buy into the P.C. agenda that informs us that all beliefs are equal and deserving of respect.[/div]
Yep, that's one of the most ridiculous tenets of the classic "PC" belief system. And it makes the believers of that concept out to be dupes and fools.
How are these people.......
(http://uweb.txstate.edu/~rw04/religion/experiences/images/serpent_handlers_r_lee.jpg)
reading the same book as these people
(http://www.wbccares.org/choir/images/people_in_church.jpg)
Hey I haven't gone to church since my pastor started sleeping with my youth minister during a YOUTH CONVENTION! in Atlanta a couple of years ago. So I'm really a non practising lutheran. I always will be a lutheran even if I don't go to church because well thats who I am. I don't agree with everything but hey to me its better then the rest of them. The problem I have with "American Christianity" is the evangelical movement. Therefore I do not partake in there thinking. They are the taliban and have hijacked the faith just like the extremist on the muslim side have done to Islam. I've looked in the mirror as they say at christianity as a whole in america and I don't like where its going.
tenkani wrote....I don't buy into the P.C. agenda
[img style="CURSOR: pointer" onclick=url(this.src); src="http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/more/bigs/c020.gif" border=0]
If I haven't mentioned it already, check out the film The God Who Wasn't there. It's actually not as vitriolic as the title might suggest. One of its primary thrusts is that ignorance has been allowed to flourish because, in this culture, it's simply not acceptable to challenge someone's faith.
In all other areas, when someone makes an assertion, it's acceptable to ask them to provide a rational explanation, and if they are unable to provide one, to assume for the time being that it's baseless.
If I were to tell you that I believe human life begins at zygote because such a message spelled itself out in my alphabeti spaghetti, you'd think I was insane. If I tell you that I believe it because an invisible man decreed that it was true thousands of years ago, you're supposed to smile and accept it as my spiritual belief. Sorry, but believing in invisible people without evidence, whether it's the Christian god or Cthulhu, can be reasonably called insane.
ROFL. I love you, P.C.
And your agenda is Ok with me (http://discoverseattle.net/forums/richedit/smileys/Teasing/5.gif)
LOL....tenkani......love you too !!!!
I agree with your last post. How do intelligent people who are capable of logic and reason justify answering a question that they don't know the answer to with "Because the Bible tells me so".
I trust my experiences in life more than I trust someone whom I have no proof existed.
My religion is the golden rule.....I always try to live it According to the Christian faith, I'm still going to hell. Doesn't seem right somehow.
tenkani wrote:
[div style="font-style: italic;"]ROFL. I love you, P.C.[/div] [div style="font-style: italic;"]And your agenda is Ok with me (http://discoverseattle.net/forums/richedit/smileys/Teasing/5.gif) [/div]
I second that, and I volunteer to rub PC's agenda until she feels better.
P.C. wrote:
How do intelligent people who are capable of logic and reason justify answering a question that they don't know the answer to with "Because the Bible tells me so".
Well...because the Bible tells them too! (//forums/richedit/smileys/Happy/14.gif)
[font style="background-color: rgb(255, 0, 127); color: rgb(255, 255, 64);" size="6"]LOL!!![/font]
P.C. wrote:
How are these people.......
(http://uweb.txstate.edu/%7Erw04/religion/experiences/images/serpent_handlers_r_lee.jpg)
reading the same book as these people
(http://www.wbccares.org/choir/images/people_in_church.jpg)
Sportsdude, sorry if I'm offending you. You seem like a nice guy, and your philosophy, apart from the crazy dogma associated with the core beliefs of your faith, is a good one.
Crazy doesn't necessarily mean evil or dangerous anyway. As you've demonstrated, believing in invisible people doesn't necessarily lead to intolerance and hatred.
My Grandmother was probably the most religious person I know. She never went to church, she didn't own a Bible or a crucifix over her bed.
She was kind and compassionate. She thanked the earth for her vegetables and treated the earth with respect and care. She ate eggs from her chickens and she treated them as well as she would treat you or me. She was grateful for what she had and always gave thanks (without ceremony.....in her own way, in her own home to her own 'god').
She worked hard. She was able to because she treated herself with respect as well.
That's what it's all about to me.
Goodness and spirituality without religion.
Nice to know that it's possible.
tis tenkani. [img style="CURSOR: pointer" onclick=url(this.src); src="http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/liebe/d042.gif" border=0]
As P.C. said, the whole key to decent behaviour is in the Golden Rule. If everyone was to follow that, there would be no war, poverty or famine. Unfortunately, we can only do this individually, since the vast majority don't feel that way in spite of all the religions that teach it. Since a lot of the preachers are the greediest of the lot, we can't expect their followers to pay attention to anything that doesn't either scare them or benefit them. The ones that do try to practice love and tolerance get punished by the very churches that advocate tolerance. And all of this is predicated on a bunch of old myths. Amazing! So sad that there are so many sheep in the world that want to be led by the nose. A lot of them are otherwise intelligent, but they still won't question the beliefs of the elders.
Three cheers for P.C. and Sportsdude!
Schadenfreude wrote:
Why do homosexuals feel they have to announce to the world they are homosexual?
That's something I've always wondered about, too. Certainly not to make life easier for themselves as they lay themselves open to the homophobia of the ignorant.
I might not being practising due to the fact that I'm a bit peeved at the culture in general (not elca just the christian culture in america). We have a new pastor (since the old one got booted) she yes SHE said in her bio that she was lost in the wilderness for 20 years before she came back. I guess I'm in that stage, but I've been alienated not lost. Alienation turns to hate. So I've decided to take another route and just be a good person and help the world. After college I might sign up for the peace corp or something before going into law school. I've always helped the poor and misfortunate first in my life before myself. (Yes this can backfire, since my own life was in shambles 2 years ago).
So I've decided to go into politics but I can't due what I want to do in Missouri. Washington on the other hand I can do what I want to do. Anybody remember Tommy Douglas? Well, thats my political view. 40 million people in this country don't have health insurance. When they get in an accident they are sent to places you don't want to know. Small businesses in this country continue to suffer to the big box stores of Wal-Mart, Walgreens, Home Depot, Microsoft. The enviroment is going down the tubes in this country. The president is selling off our national forests. People get tax breaks for buying hummers, cars haven't gained better fuel economy in 20 years! Public Transportation is not existant in this country, we need to stop being the world's bully acting like we own the world, censorship in america needs to stop, fcc shouldn't be allowed to fine broadcasters, mpaa movie ratings are old and need to be updated with more of a focus of higher ratings on violence instead of sex. People need to get over the abortion issue. Separation of Church and State. Bilingual america by making english and spanish the offical languages. Then to stop a Quebec thing from happening schools must teach spanish and english, must take spanish all 12 years in school along with english and 3 years of another language. Make cars have 50 miles per gallon. They can do it look at Europe. Pass the first transportation bill in history that only deals with public transit (subways not buses).
Only problem is, is that will never happen in america and one person like me can't accomplish it. Why? Politics. We live in a autocratic government where there are only two parties with any chance and those two parties won't let other ideas come to the table. I'd like to set up a SDP party here but I couldn't use the words social democracy party because I'd never win. Conservatives would call me a commi. And they would somehow turn me into a Stalin. Even though the rest of the western world is run by social democratic thinking (they use FDR as a model) we can't have that noo that would be communism.
The other plan I have is to become mayor of Pt. Roberts, Washington. Why Pt. Roberts? Its a defacto community in that in order to get to the U.S. you need to go into Canada take a half hour ride thru White Rock and re-enter into Blaine, Washington. But starting in 2007 Pt. Roberts which is an AMERICAN TOWN will be treated like a CANADIAN TOWN in which all 1,500 residents will have to pay 500 bucks to get into there own country. That means kids going to school will have to pay 500 bucks to get this card because school for them is in Blaine. Bush has effectively succeded Pt. Roberts and the triangle in Minnesota to Canada because of this law.
(http://www.yerkir.am/photo/19013.jpg)
sorry for my rant, time for me to go to bed now.
That was beautiful, sportsdude.
You've really got a grasp on American politics and it's a shame that it's almost impossible for someone like you (with socialist leanings) to be elected to high office. Americans are too hung up on labels and so they miss the essence of issues. BUT DON'T STOP TRYING! I'd vote for you (http://discoverseattle.net/forums/richedit/smileys/Happy/2.gif)
Do what thou wilt.
Love is the law, love under will.
- Aleister Crowley (the wickedest man in the world)
Legion, what's the deal with Satanism?
What do they believe Satan wants from them?
I prefer to call Satan the [a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge"]Demiurge[/a].
According to the Gnostics he is the creator of this universe and feels himself to be the one true god. However, he is not the one true god as christians misunderstand him to be.
Jewish Kabbalah, the great mystical philosphy of the jews, calls God the ain soph aur. Rough translation: the ultimate limitless light. This God cannot be known and anything we think we know about him is wrong and possibly blasphemous.
Anyway. Gnostics believe that we all have a divine spark within and this is our path to the real God. As above so below.
Ah, so Satan (the Demiurge) IS god.
Is that what Satanists believe?
And according to Satanists, what should guide our lives?
Whim?[/DIV]
tenkani wrote:
Ah, so Satan (the Demiurge) IS god.
Is that what Satanists believe?
And according to Satanists, what should guide our lives?
Whim?[/DIV][/DIV]
Nihilism?
Why would a nihilist worship an invisible man in the sky (or under the earth)?
It's sort of a contradiction.
Nihilism is depressing as hell, but it's probably as close to the ultimate truth as we're likely to get (http://discoverseattle.net/forums/richedit/smileys/Sad/10.gif)
Legion wrote:
I prefer to call Satan the [a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge"]Demiurge[/a].
Yah, I have dem urges all de time.
Sorry, I don't know much about satanists.
Consider me to be a neo-nihilist. I don't believe in anything that 99.999999% of people believe. I am fashioning my own philosophy which has everything to do with living and knowing myself. I guess you could call me an existentalist. I live my philosophy and I'm not afraid to try out new ones.
Like the Gnostics and Kabbalists I believe that God cannot truly be known, at least from where I'm sitting. So I can only decipher my little divine spark within so that's all I'm gonna do. Abstract thinking is herd thinking.
I think a lot of people join a religion (assuming they weren't part of it from childhood) for the community. If you don't need to find that in your religion you're a lot more free to choose the philosophy that best suits your outlook, rather than having the philosophy choose you.
Legion, I respect the thought you've put into your perspective and yeah, it's hard work, especially when you can't turn to a single book for the answers to every question (http://discoverseattle.net/forums/richedit/smileys/Teasing/5.gif)
actually jesus says nothing about homosexuality.
it is the sometimes rabid and fanatical paul.
I don't think I mentioned Jesus. In fact I said it was from the Old Testament.
Nontheless, it was a commandment to execute homosexuals.
If the good book is devinely-inspired, isn't it reasonable to assume that a command so extreme would not be included in the bible unless god approved of it?
I think a lot of people join a religion (assuming they weren't part of it from childhood) for the community.
This is my perspective also. At the risk of being cheeky, not unlike AA. People of like minds find comfort in numbers. And you know what ????....I don't have a problem with that. If it were merely a place of comfort for people to find avenues for dealing with life, I can't imagine anything better. But it's not. It almost feels like a 'misery loves company' senario, and everyone who has misery, can only find answers if you join this group. And if you don't...........you're surely going to hell.
there is no 11th commandment to kill homosexuals.
what you have done tenkani,is shown your subtle hostility to a text or book that i suspect you have not read your way through.
god inspired?
yes,there are many stories throughtout the jewish old testament and the christian new testament that speak of gods involvement in the human race.there are direct stories relating to some central figures in judeo-christian culture and there are reflections about god written by various authors.there is also,of course,the gospels.
it is as course a collection of texts that have been edited over time,some portions ommitted and some elaborated to suit their own means or ends.there are no christians or jews who believe the bible the way it is assembled now is somehow the eternal text and thoughts of god???
i suggest you read psalms,very enlightening.a very touching relflection on god.
Secular
[OL] [LI]Worldly rather than spiritual. ( There are the people that pray and the people that do)[/LI][/OL]
Soapbox, thanks for the thoughtful and measured reply, although a flame would have been perfectly acceptable too IMO.
I was taking a slightly extreme position in order to hopefully stimulate some debate on an important topic. Thor knows we could use it here in the crypt. Whether this is trolling, I'll let you be the judge.
"there are no christians or jews who believe the bible the way it is assembled now is somehow the eternal text and thoughts of god???"
If you meant this as a statement rather than a question then I have to disagree. I have met several Christians (and heard/read many others) who claim that the King James version of the bible is LITERALLY true and is 100% god-inspired.
The fact that don't hold this position says a lot about your intelligence (in a good way).
Am I hostile towards the bible? Well, I'm hostile towards the portions where the Christian god orders the execution of entire communties of non-believers, man, woman and child. I'm hostile towards the sections that advocate the forceable capture and impregnation of the women of conquered enemies. I'm hostile towards a book that advocates stoning disobedient children to death.
But mostly, I'm hostile towards the fundamentalists, who believe all of these commandments and events are literally true and still find it in their hearts to follow a diety who would perpetrate/advocate them.
To those Christians who see the bible as a flawed and sometimes improperly translated collection of geneology, metaphor and history, I'm not particularly hostile, although I can't wrap my head around doubting the accuracy of the bible yet still having faith in the existence of an invisible man.
I read somewhere that man created god in his own image, which explains why there are so many differences between gods. There couldn't be a totally flawless deity, because mankind would have no way to relate to such a being. Having said that, I still don't see any reason to believe in something there is no proof of, and is flawed at that. How could a god be a "Supreme Being" and still have all the pettinesses that humans posess? Doesn't make sense.
the bible was not written by god,it was written by the followers of god,inspried by god and some of it recordings of god and gods' relationship with humans.
well,we certainly were not created in a garden in the likeness of god,we are part of the larger creative process of the cosmos,we are not separate and distinct somehow having a special place in the universe,alone with our creator.what i mean by that is we are bound by the laws of nature and science as we understand them and those laws are a result of living within this universe,the universe i am inclined to think was intiated by the big guy.
what is important is that there are certain messengers along the way who point to a larger reality we are not always aware of.i say always aware of because i am certain you have experienced epiphanies in your life.syncronicities and situations revealed to you in your life that indicate this.these people don't always have it down right as we are just a species who is learning about ourselves and our universe around us,but the message in essence is the same.
we exist in that wierd space between emerging from the ocean and understanding our role in the universe(think in terms of a really long time frame which a "wink" in gods time) sound like a cheesy star trek episode? not really.
we can peer into the universe and reflect on ourselves and creation yet we still "club" each other over the head when we have conflict withinour own species or with our habitat/natural enviroment...i'd say we have a long way to go.
god and jesus. kitten mentioned it is hard to relate to god.well,think about jesus for a moment and his message.he is a metaphor for us as a species and god. jesus tells us that there is faith and love,there is a father (ie) god, tells us that we can experience this creator or the creators love through him.almost like saying...worship me but worship me for the right reasons because i am god manifest in human form. kinda makes it easier to relate to the big guy(big thing,big it,big girl,big guy). know that god loves you and this is bond that can never be broken. god made it easier to love him or for practicality,know him,by bringing forth jesus. "know me and you know the father".
okay,you say...god loves us...why do shitty things happen and good people die? i would say that gods role is not to babysit us as a species but to periodically show up in our lives personally or through history to remind us there is a god.
if god held our hands so to speak through our evolution as a species how could we ever grow without struggle? learn and develop? if we could ask god for food like ordering it through a computer on red dwarf what is the point?(think from the big guys perspective).
children of creation,children of god,children of the cosmos.
now remember: APE SHALL NOT KILL APE.
LOL. Well said (http://discoverseattle.net/forums/richedit/smileys/Happy/19.gif)
Didn't you kill my brother?
The gnostics were on their way to a mass peace movement and the so-called Christians massacred us.
No worries. What does not kill us makes us stronger.
So what's the difference between a radical Islamic holy man and a guy like Pat Robertson?
And what does it say about the state of American fundamentalist Christians that his followers haven't left him in droves?
What does it say about the bible, and their interpretation of it, that despite the compassion and love espoused by Jesus Christ, fundies across the country use the bible to justify war, assassination and declare natural disasters to be the work of their god in retaliation for the sins of mankind?
If you believed in an old testament god, I would argue, Pat Robertson makes absolute sense! So why, so often, do they (fundies) choose to focus on their wrathful, bloodthirsty god rather than on Jesus Christ?
soapbox wrote:
the bible was not written by god,it was written by the followers of god,inspried by god and some of it recordings of god and gods' relationship with humans.
well,we certainly were not created in a garden in the likeness of god,we are part of the larger creative process of the cosmos,we are not separate and distinct somehow having a special place in the universe,alone with our creator.what i mean by that is we are bound by the laws of nature and science as we understand them and those laws are a result of living within this universe,the universe i am inclined to think was intiated by the big guy.
what is important is that there are certain messengers along the way who point to a larger reality we are not always aware of.i say always aware of because i am certain you have experienced epiphanies in your life.syncronicities and situations revealed to you in your life that indicate this.these people don't always have it down right as we are just a species who is learning about ourselves and our universe around us,but the message in essence is the same.
we exist in that wierd space between emerging from the ocean and understanding our role in the universe(think in terms of a really long time frame which a "wink" in gods time) sound like a cheesy star trek episode? not really.
we can peer into the universe and reflect on ourselves and creation yet we still "club" each other over the head when we have conflict withinour own species or with our habitat/natural enviroment...i'd say we have a long way to go.
god and jesus. kitten mentioned it is hard to relate to god.well,think about jesus for a moment and his message.he is a metaphor for us as a species and god. jesus tells us that there is faith and love,there is a father (ie) god, tells us that we can experience this creator or the creators love through him.almost like saying...worship me but worship me for the right reasons because i am god manifest in human form. kinda makes it easier to relate to the big guy(big thing,big it,big girl,big guy). know that god loves you and this is bond that can never be broken. god made it easier to love him or for practicality,know him,by bringing forth jesus. "know me and you know the father".
okay,you say...god loves us...why do shitty things happen and good people die? i would say that gods role is not to babysit us as a species but to periodically show up in our lives personally or through history to remind us there is a god.
if god held our hands so to speak through our evolution as a species how could we ever grow without struggle? learn and develop? if we could ask god for food like ordering it through a computer on red dwarf what is the point?(think from the big guys perspective).
children of creation,children of god,children of the cosmos.
now remember: APE SHALL NOT KILL APE.
Soapbox, I'm disappointed to find myself unable to disagree with anything you've said in this message
Yeah, me too, except for the god existing part (http://discoverseattle.net/forums/richedit/smileys/Teasing/5.gif)
Emo Phillips says:
I was in San Fransisco once, walking along the Golden Gate Bridge, and I saw this guy on the bridge about to jump. So I thought I'd try to stall and detain him, long enough for me to put the film in. I said, "Don't jump!" and he turns...
He said, "Nobody loves me."
I said, "God loves you, you silly ninny."...
He said, "I do believe in God."
I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"
He said, "A Christian."
I said, "Me too. Protestant or Catholic?"
He said, "Protestant."
I said, "Me too! What franchise?"
He says, "Baptist."
I said, "Me too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"
He says, "Northern Baptist."
I said, "Me too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?" He says, "Northern Conservative Baptist."
I say, "Me too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist or Northern Conservative Reform Baptist?"
He says, "Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist."
I say, "Me too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Eastern Region?"
He says, "Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region."
I say, "Me too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879 or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"
He says, "Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."
I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.
*wiping away tear*
*grimacing at pain from cracked rib*
I second that Emo:
"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me."