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Author Topic: Defend America's Democracy  (Read 15203 times)

Adam_Fulford

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Re: Defend America's Democracy
« Reply #30 on: Mar 17 06 02:20 »
You sound like those tobacco lobbyists who denied that there was any  evidence directly linking tobacco smoking to disease.  The evidence against  the US electronic voting machines from credible sources is a abundant and  easily found by any intellectually honest person who  seriously wants to know.   Just go to [A href="http://www.blackboxvoting.org"]www.blackboxvoting.org[/A] to find it, neatly compiled.  Also, check out [A href="http://www.bradblog.com"]www.bradblog.com[/A] for a list of articles and sources.

TehBorken

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Re: Defend America's Democracy
« Reply #31 on: Mar 17 06 02:24 »
Witch asks:What evidence? So far we have seen no actual evidence.

And what would you consider evidence? What would it take to make you say, "Hmmm, something looks wrong here..."?

The real trouble with reality is that there's no background music.

Legion

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Re: Defend America's Democracy
« Reply #32 on: Mar 17 06 02:25 »
You sound like those tobacco lobbyists who denied that there was any evidence directly linking tobacco smoking to disease.

This really pisses me off.

Someone should start the lobby for safe tobacco.
curses!

Adam_Fulford

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Re: Defend America's Democracy
« Reply #33 on: Mar 17 06 02:35 »
[LI]TX: Galveston County - New voting system, same problems (Hart eSlate and eScan) [A href="http://news.galvestondailynews.com/story.lasso?ewcd=b5c1182c635f6be7" target=_blank][FONT color=#000080]LINK[/FONT][/A]
[LI]TX: Jefferson County - Voting woes mar debut of electronic ballots (ES&S iVotronic) [A href="http://www.southeasttexaslive.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=16259795&BRD=2287&PAG=461&dept_id=512588&rfi=6" target=_blank][FONT color=#000080]LINK[/FONT][/A]
[LI]TX: Jefferson County - Confusion mars new voting process [A href="http://www.panews.com/articles/2006/03/08/news/election%20news/confusion.txt" target=_blank][FONT color=#000080]LINK[/FONT][/A]
[LI]TX: Robertson County - Robertson County vote tallies delayed (ES&S AutoMark) [A href="http://www.theeagle.com/stories/030806/politics_20060308017.php" target=_blank][FONT color=#000080]LINK[/FONT][/A]
[LI]TX: Tom Green County - Computer problems delay election returns (Hart eScan) [A href="http://www.sanangelostandardtimes.com/sast/home/article/0,1897,SAST_4943_4522634,00.html" target=_blank][FONT color=#000080]LINK[/FONT][/A]
[LI]TX: Webb County - Cuellar defeats Rodriguez in congressional grudge match (Counting problems – ES&S) [A href="http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/special_packages/election2004/14041526.htm" target=_blank][FONT color=#000080]LINK[/FONT][/A]
[LI]TX: Webb and Bexar County - ‘Glitches' get blame in Webb (ES&S) [A href="http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA030806.11A.glitches.4247ae5.html" target=_blank][FONT color=#000080]LINK[/FONT][/A][/LI][A href="http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA030806.11A.glitches.4247ae5.html" target=_blank][FONT color=#000080][/FONT][/A][A href="http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA030806.11A.glitches.4247ae5.html" target=_blank][FONT color=#000080][/FONT][/A]

tenkani

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Re: Defend America's Democracy
« Reply #34 on: Mar 17 06 02:38 »
I only smoke filtered cigarettes.[/DIV]Last month I was diagnosed with Cancer Light.
For thou art with me; thy cream and thy sugar they comfort me
Thou preparest a carafe before me in the presence of Juan Valdez
Thou anointest my day with pep; my mug runneth over
Surely richness and taste shall follow me all the days of my life
And I will dwell in the house of coffee forever.


Adam_Fulford

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Re: Defend America's Democracy
« Reply #35 on: Mar 17 06 02:45 »
Hi, Tenkani

Hao Jiu Bu Jian

Adam_Fulford

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Re: Defend America's Democracy
« Reply #36 on: Mar 17 06 02:46 »
Literal Translation: Long time no see.

tenkani

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Re: Defend America's Democracy
« Reply #37 on: Mar 17 06 02:55 »
Aloha, Ninja Buster!!!    

Hay, this thread needs some bat pics!!!!!1
For thou art with me; thy cream and thy sugar they comfort me
Thou preparest a carafe before me in the presence of Juan Valdez
Thou anointest my day with pep; my mug runneth over
Surely richness and taste shall follow me all the days of my life
And I will dwell in the house of coffee forever.

Adam_Fulford

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Re: Defend America's Democracy
« Reply #38 on: Mar 17 06 11:34 »
[FONT color=#0000ff][FONT face=Arial]WHISTLEBLOWER WHO DEFIED THE FASCISTS RUNS FOR CONGRESS[/FONT][/FONT][/DIV][FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff][A href="http://www.clintcurtis.com/"]http://www.clintcurtis.com/[/A][/FONT][/DIV][FONT color=#0000ff][FONT face=Arial][/FONT][/FONT] [/DIV][FONT color=#0000ff][FONT face=Arial]CLINT CURTIS runs for Congress, 24th Distict[/FONT][/FONT][/DIV][FONT color=#0000ff][FONT face=Arial][/FONT][/FONT] [/DIV][FONT color=#0000ff][FONT face=Arial]'Why am I running for Congress?
[/DIV][/FONT][/FONT][FONT color=#0000ff][FONT face=Arial]My name is Clint Curtis. I am considering running for the U.S. House of Representatives in Florida's 24th Congressional District. I will [/FONT][A href="http://www.clintcurtis.com/Contribute.html" target=_blank][FONT face=Arial]need your help.[/FONT][/A][FONT face=Arial][FONT color=#000000] [/FONT].
[/DIV][/FONT][/FONT][FONT color=#0000ff][FONT face=Arial]I am a former Republican who became a whistleblower that came forward and testified to Congress under oath, regarding the request from a sitting congressman to build a computer program that could, without detection, flip your vote in an election. This manipulation would allow a person or political party to take control of voting machine and decide who wins the election, regardless of the true vote count. In March of 2005, I passed a polygraph test as to the accuracy of my statements."
[/FONT][/FONT][/DIV][FONT color=#0000ff][FONT face=Arial][A href="http://www.clintcurtis.com/"]Read rest here[/A][/FONT][/FONT][/DIV][FONT color=#0000ff][FONT face=Arial] [/DIV][/FONT][/FONT][A href="http://www.clint-curtis.blogspot.com/" target=_blank][FONT face=Arial]Please visit my Blog[/FONT][/A] [/DIV]

Witch

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Re: Defend America's Democracy
« Reply #39 on: Mar 18 06 08:38 »
Adam_Fulford wrote:
You sound like those tobacco lobbyists who denied that there was any  evidence directly linking tobacco smoking to disease.  

Witch replies:[/DIV]Fallacy of poisoning the well. You are now trying to discredit me by association with a lobby which lies and represents a biased view that very much needs their one way view to be taken as truth. That is ingenuine in that I have not lied inasmuch as I have not promoted any opinion on the issue at all.

If one looks critically at this conversation one sees that all I've been doing is reminding and advocating the use of unbiased sources to form an opinion and reminding people that only getting information from an obviously biased source, especially one which constantly appeals to "the truth" without offering objective evidence, misrepresents other sources as supporting their view, and disparages anyone who refuses to jump on the conspiracy bandwagon.

In fact, if we look at those particular attributes, especially the misrepresenting and the disparaging of anyone who questions your conclusions, it would appear that you are much more similar to the tobacco lobby than I am.

 Adam Fulford:[/DIV]The evidence against  the US electronic voting machines from credible sources is a abundant and  easily found by any intellectually honest person who  seriously wants to know.   Just go to [A href="http://www.blackboxvoting.org"]www.blackboxvoting.org[/A] to find it, neatly compiled.  Also, check out [A href="http://www.bradblog.com"]www.bradblog.com[/A] for a list of articles and sources.[/DIV]
Witch Replies:[/DIV]Anyone can spuriously appeal to "intellectual honesty" in order to advance their agenda. True intellectual honesty lies in being honest about bias and looking for evidence from sources which do not benefit from the outcome. The sites you keep advocating are certainly not unbiased, and certainly not detached from the outcome.

All I've done is asked for sources which are honest, open, unbiased, present objective evidence rather than speculation, and who do not misrepresent speculation as if it were actual evidence. For that I have been subjected to derision and abuse at your hand. Does that sound like "intellectual honesty" on your part, Adam?

Why is honest debate and investigation so threatening to you Adam?  

Witch

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Re: Defend America's Democracy
« Reply #40 on: Mar 18 06 08:52 »
TehBorken wrote:
Witch asks:[SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"]What evidence? So far we have seen no actual evidence.[/SPAN]

And what would you consider evidence? What would it take to make you say, "Hmmm, something looks wrong here..."?
[/DIV]

Witch replies:

I've already said "something looks wrong here". I have under no illusion that the voting machines are reliable. I know Adam wants to paint me as a planted advocate for the "enemy", but I had hoped you wouldn't fall into that trap.

All I'm saying, in general (and certainly in response to the original post in which a person who is under investigation by authorities is being painted as the poor, persecuted, bullied innocent) , is that just as one should be suspicious of the declarations of absolute innocence from the one very biased side, one should also be suspicious of the declarations of absolute evil from the other very biased side.

blackboxvoting.org has an agenda. That much is very, very clear from reading their site and from reading Adam's posts. That doesn't mean they're wrong, it just means they may not be as trustworthy as they try to portray themselves. Remember, if the company and the government can lie, so can blackboxvoting. When you get speculations being offered as if they were proven fact, you need to be suspicious. When you get letters supposedly written by someone in authority, but which bear no signature, seal, or other identifying mark being presented as proof of a conspiracy, you need to be suspicious. When people post reams of links as evidence, which end up coming from sites just as biased and unverified as their own, you need to be supicious.

I am suspicious of the Government and the company in this situation. I don't trust them and there appears to be something very wrong going on. However, intellectual honesty compels me to be equally suspicious of the conspiracy mongers on the other side who use the same tactics of misrepresentation and skewing of the evidence, and abuse and ad hominem attack of anyone who disagrees or questions them. That is why intellectual honesty compels me to question the motives of both extremes, and to search for evidence from unbiased sources to form an honest opinion.

If both sides are wrong, which is most often the case in these things, are you more vindicated if you have blindly believed either one over the other?

Adam_Fulford

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Re: Defend America's Democracy
« Reply #41 on: Mar 18 06 11:27 »
Bev Harris and other members of Black Box Voting [A href="http://www.blackboxvoting.org/"]www.blackboxvoting.org[/A] are very reputable and honest people.   They have to be super careful to back up what they assert, when dealing with the vast fascist apparatus trying to hijack America's Democracy, including Diebold, a huge criminal corporation that has gone into legal attack mode several times against Black Box Voting and LOST in courts of law every time.  Diebold was successfully sued by the state of California, using the evidence that whistle blower hero Stephen Heller bravely provided to protect America's democracy.  The California Secretary of State at the time, Kevin Shelley, called Diebold's conduct "[A href="http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/09/08/BAGN68L64F1.DTL"]reprehensible[/A]" and said "[A href="http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/01/national/01VOTE.html?ex=1398744000&en=322af40499b8657e&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND"]their performance, their behavior, is despicable[/A]," and that "if that's the kind of deceitful behavior they're going to engage in, they can't do business in California." [/DIV]

Witch

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Re: Defend America's Democracy
« Reply #42 on: Mar 18 06 11:48 »
Adam_Fulford wrote:
Bev Harris and other members of Black Box Voting [A href="http://www.blackboxvoting.org/"]www.blackboxvoting.org[/A] are very reputable and honest people.  

 Witch replies:[/DIV]So you say. However, you saying they are honest is an opinion, not a fact. What crooked politician has ever claimed to be crooked? What used car salesman has ever claimed to be dishonest? What conspiracy theorist has ever cautioned people to be careful how much of his rhetoric to believe?

People who misrepresent speculation as fact, and who hold up unverifiable evidence as "proof" don't strike me as being very honest. Even if they were honest, as such, there's no way to tell. They could be telling the truth as they believe it to be, but yet be completely wrong due to their bias. Their obvious bias and almost religious hatred of the other side makes them unreliable as a source of factual imformation. That's why I, and most reasonable people, perfer top form our opinions from unbiased sources.

Adam_Fulford wrote:[/DIV]They have to be super careful to back up what they assert, when dealing with the vast fascist apparatus trying to hijack America's Democracy, including Diebold, a huge criminal corporation that has gone into legal attack mode several times against Black Box Voting and LOST in courts of law every time.  

Witch replies:[/DIV]Balderdash. Conspiracy sites on the web are a dime a dozen. All of them claim to have the "truth". All of them claim that their existence is proof of their veracity because otherwise the "guv'mint" would sue them and shut them down.

The only thing it shows is that the more whacked out you are and the less verifiable your conspiracy theories are the less likely it is that your "enimies" will care what you say on the web.

 Adam_Fulford wrote:[/DIV]Diebold was successfully sued by the state of California, using the evidence that whistle blower hero Stephen Heller bravely provided to protect America's democracy.  The California Secretary of State at the time, Kevin Shelley, called Diebold's conduct "[A href="http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/09/08/BAGN68L64F1.DTL"]reprehensible[/A]" and said "[A href="http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/01/national/01VOTE.html?ex=1398744000&en=322af40499b8657e&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND"]their performance, their behavior, is despicable[/A]," and that "if that's the kind of deceitful behavior they're going to engage in, they can't do business in California."

Witch replies:[/DIV]But that's not exactly what the unbiased reports say... is it? In essence you have taken stories, added your own speculation and opinion to what those stories mean, and are now trying to pass off those speculations and opinions as facts and proof. That doesn't make you very reliable as a source of information. Since you get your information from peopl who are likely to be doing the same thing, it makes it even less likely. Add to that your use of religious rhetoric phraseeology like "whistle blower hero", "vast fascist apparatus", "hijack America's Democracy", "huge criminal corporation", etc (not to mention the obvious overuse of bolding, underlining, ancd color, kind of like an email hoax) and it's obvious that you are more likely to be dealing in fallacy of appeal to emotion than to be giving us reliable information.

Unbiased and trustworthy sources don't have to resort to cliche's and tugging at our heartstrings to get us to believe them.

Once again, just so you can't try to shut me up by the use of ad hominem, I'm not defending Diebold in any way. I'm simply pointing out how unreasonable and illogical it is to come to a conclusion about one biased and untrustworthy side based solely on the empty rhetoric of the other biased and untrustworthy side.[/DIV]
 

TehBorken

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Re: Defend America's Democracy
« Reply #43 on: Mar 18 06 12:01 »
Adam_Fulford wrote:
[div style="font-style: italic;"]Bev Harris and other members of Black Box Voting [a href="http://www.blackboxvoting.org/"]www.blackboxvoting.org[/a] are very reputable and honest people.   They have to be super careful to back up what they assert, when dealing with the vast fascist apparatus trying to hijack America's Democracy, including Diebold, a huge criminal corporation that has gone into legal attack mode several times against Black Box Voting and LOST in courts of law every time.  Diebold was successfully sued by the state of California, using the evidence that whistle blower hero Stephen Heller bravely provided to protect America's democracy.  The California Secretary of State at the time, Kevin Shelley, called Diebold's conduct "[a href="http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/09/08/BAGN68L64F1.DTL"]reprehensible[/a]" and said "[a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/01/national/01VOTE.html?ex=1398744000&en=322af40499b8657e&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND"]their performance, their behavior, is despicable[/a]," and that "if that's the kind of deceitful behavior they're going to engage in, they can't do business in California."


[/div]Blackboxvoting does indeed take great pains to ensure the accuracy and legitimacy of the material they publish. At this time, they have a lot of documents that are very damning to Diebold. Look at it this way- even if only 10% of what they claim is true, it's still a case of deliberate, willfull vote fraud

The persecution of Stephen Heller is a textbook case of people in power using their influence to shut someone up who's exposing their illegal activities. You couldn't ask for a clearer example.

I've seen a lot of stuff that indicates Diebold committed election fraud, things that are difficult if not impossile to explain away.  The more you look into it the more disturbing it becomes. I believe the truth will come out someday, and it won't be pretty.
The real trouble with reality is that there's no background music.

Adam_Fulford

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Re: Defend America's Democracy
« Reply #44 on: Mar 18 06 02:21 »
[FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff]You know what, Witch, it is simple.  You're trying to discredit the messenger with a suspicious degree of enthusiasm and vitriol.  Don't look at the blemishes on the finger; look to where the finger is pointing -- in this case,  a cesspool of corruption that is threatening the integrity of America's democracy.  Check my sources.  The evidence backs up what I say (yes, and even how I say it).  Go to [A href="http://www.blackboxvoting.org/"]www.blackboxvoting.org[/A] and [A href="http://www.bradblog.com/"]www.bradblog.com[/A] sites, that list an abundance of well-documented sources.

Honest Americans are fighting back against the Fascist apparatus that has been riding roughshod over America's democracy.  

Sometimes a cigar is a cigar, a Fascist apparatus is a Fascist apparatus, and a rose is a rose is a rose.[/DIV]PROTECT AMERICA'S DEMOCRACY.  Find out more about how the vast Fascist apparatus  (e.g. look at the Florida elections) is trying to castrate, rape, pillage, and abort America's democracy, for selfish and greedy ends:[/DIV][A href="http://www.blackboxvoting.org/"]www.blackboxvoting.org[/A] [/DIV][A href="http://www.bradblog.com/"]www.bradblog.com[/A] [/DIV][A href="http://www.verifiedvoting.org/"]http://www.verifiedvoting.org[/A] [/DIV][/FONT][/DIV]

 

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