Am I using Canada as a form of 'escapism'?

Started by Sportsdude, Jun 18 06 12:11

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Sportsdude

Got accused of that on another site I frequent by one of its moderators.  He said I was anti-american and that I was in some sort of fantasy land.  I don't know.  I can't help that my biggest hobby is learning about Canada.  They never taught us anything in school about Canada not even major events like the referendums.  I just don't see the parallels.  Yes I kinda have taken things to the extreme but I'm not hurting anyone.  But to me its more of a goal.  I'm not some old hoagie talking about Canada knowing I'll never get there.  I can get there, I've got 60-80 years left.  I'm sorry if I'm leaving to the people that call me a traitor.  What I see in america is something that cannot be fixed.  I've always wanted the U.S. to become more European like in terms of its society but I've come to realisation that, that will never be the case.  America is too stuck in the 18th century, needs to wake up.  What happend in Quebec during the 1930's and 40's called the "Quiet Revolution" needs to happen here execpt on a larger scale.  This country is going down the slippery slope in the wrong direction.  Sorry if I want to get off the Titanic known as america.  
"We can't stop here. This is bat country."

Dissident

  There's nothing wrong in learning about your neighbour to the North.  I'd love to point out guys like you to the ignoramus jerks I meet here who say that Americans know nothing about Canada (and then spout out the most ridiculous generalisations about Americans and the US).

However, you shouldn't overlook the drawbacks as well.  One of the biggest ones to living here is that many people will outright hate you just for being American.  It has happened to me a number of times.  Not being from the South (the Southern accent being confused by a lot of the above-mentioned dummies with the typical American accent) I can usually "pass" pretty easily if I want to.  But then I have had perfectly harmonious professional and personal relationships go South (no pun intended) as soon as the other person finds out that I'm American.  Yeah, it's so obvious that Americans are bad people that you figured that out about me right away—but after months of getting along with me you now decide that I'm a jerk just because of where I was born.  Whatever.

I'm not saying Canadians are narrow-minded in general—but I've certainly met a good number who are.  I include a lot of well-educated professionals in that group.  I got so sick of it with one woman who considered herself a good friend but never failed to get in the obligatory dig about my origins that I stopped associating with her—just as I did with one who said she was bent on "Canadianising" me (whatever that means), but in reality was using my lack of confidence in a new country and defensiveness about being an American to her advantage (this was a work supervisor) to get me to do way more than should have been expected of me (and more than was expected of everyone else in my position), in an unnecessarily highly-pressured environment.  I've also had to deal with bullying and sexual harrassment at work and amongst my neighbours—this is primarily from white, native-born Canadians.  Add serious cultural and political resentments from a lot of the Southeast Asian immigrants in my neighbourhood (there's a reason why they came here instead of the US), and it gets old really fast.

At the same time, I caution you against blinding yourself to some of the great things about the US.  It's an easy trap to fall into just because of the many detrimental things you see in the media and around you.  For me, it has been a blessing to have two PBS stations (Seattle and Detroit) to choose from here so that I can get a regular reminder of the good things about the US:  especially culturally and historically.  It's good, too, to remember that, just as so much of what's good about the US has its downsides, so do a lot of the things you admire in Canada.   Canada's treatment of its Native population through history is no more admirable than ours; and here on the West Coast Japanese Canadians were interned during WWII just as they were in the States.  Racism exists here just as it does in the States—it just takes a very different guise, and is harder for those used to American-style racism to recognise.

I think it's great that you're interested in another culture and want to live outside the US.  It has long been a goal of mine.  I was so disappointed after I got married that my husband wanted to remain in the US instead of return to Europe, as I had been desperate to leave the country permanently since quite literally before you were born.  When I left the US in the shadow of the build-up for the Iraq war, I felt very fortunate.  Having some income sources in the US, however, I get to pay taxes to the very government I'm trying to get away from.  Knowing that my money is going to repress the people I left behind is not a happy thought.  Plus, my friends in the US have all but branded me a coward for "running away".

Sorry to go on, but I have a feeling that I know what motivates your interest in emigrating, and if there's anything I can provide for you it's a walking advertisement of how that dream can go tremendously wrong.  If you make it past potential draft age without leaving the US and still want to go elsewhere, why restrict your options to Canada?  There's another country to the South, too, and plenty of other places throughout the world—some of which could provide a better potential "fit" than an increasingly restrictive and xenophobic (at least as regards the US) Canada.

   
fenec rawks!

Sportsdude

I don't think its about politics, for me.  If it was this urge to move would have left along time ago.  And yes I've looked at other countries I like Europe for example.  When I finally get to college I want to go study overseas in Norway.  I've got this disease (as I call it) to want to be an immigrant for some reason (Its has got to do with what my grandparents went through I believe).  I've become complacent down here and spoiled. (Even though I'm  from a middle class family that barely survives).  It has some to do with politics but as I said that would have worn off a long time ago.

The only time in my life that I was ever doing good in life was when I was being made fun of.  And I see what your talking about but then I don't see it.  And when I don't see what you're talking about is when I look at the last two gov. generals.  One was from Haiti and the other from Hong Kong.  They were not born in Canada they came to it and made it there own.  This is something you cannot do in america.  Which is why you don't see immigrants getting into politics here.  Its always there kids american born that do go into it if they want to.  This whole American Dream crap that stuffed down our throats in school is a joke when an immigrant can't access the 'americans born only' club.

  I like open spaces and the vastness of Canada.  I need a place I can get 'lost' in. (not literally).  I've taken life as one big giant test so to speak.  That might not be the best thing for me mentally but its how I run my life.
"We can't stop here. This is bat country."

Dissident

 No, I guess you don't see what I'm talking about when you equate abusive behaviour, harrassment and anonymous threats with teasing or being made fun of.  It's not very fun when you're a female who lives alone with no real local ties, and what little family that's left in another country when you're afraid to go out to your car after work, or are confronted with vandalism to your house from those bent on forcing you to move out.

The people in Canadian politics are no more representative of the population than they are in the US.  The Governor-general position is appointed.  By that "token", you could look at the appointment of Powell and Rice as Secretary of State as an indication of how well blacks are doing in the US in general.  In the case of the latter, at least Secretary of State is a real job, whereas the Governor-general is purely ceremonial.

I think the hypocrisy that really gets me about Canada is their conceit that this is a great country for immigrants.  Well, maybe 20 years ago that was the case, but from what I see it isn't now.   There's a reason why you see so many professionals from places like South Asia and the Middle East in the US, but comparatively few here.  They are "welcome" as immigrants but shut out of their professions by restrictive professional boards and racist employers who use the pretext of "Canadian job experience" to deny jobs to immigrants.  I have been offered jobs by people who didn't know I was American and weren't aware of my relative lack of Canadian experience, even though I'm sure I was less qualified than fellow enquirers who didn't share my colour and non-accented English.

If you consider American politics to be an "American-born only club", then what, as a potential emigrant, would you prefer, being shut out of politics or out of the economy in general?


   
fenec rawks!

Orik

scratches head in bewilderment.  ummm.  way to much  to read, can some one dumb it all down for me ?  
Never give up Never surrender Fight with ur last breath Fight 2 live & Fight 2 survive. Never say never & never say die. There comes a time when all will die A time we transcend & attain our place afterlife. My Fight is not yet done, I'm tired & I'd like to go home, But I'm not ready to go just yet.

Sportsdude

Ujjal Dosanjh

Jim Green

David Miller - mayor of Toronto

Rosalie Abella - Supreme Court Justice

Adrienne Clarkson

Michaëlle Jean

  All were immigrants.  I don't see an immigrant getting on the U.S. Supreme Court anytime soon.  The most successful immigrant in U.S. history is Madeline Albright and she's despised by half the country. (Arnold doesn't count, he was famous before he ever came to the U.S.)  
"We can't stop here. This is bat country."

weird al

"scratches head in bewilderment.  ummm.  way to much  to read, can some one dumb it all down for me ? "

   Sure:

  On the one hand, X. On the other hand, Y.  
 

Orik

lol. funny . real funny.

  goes off in search of some fun. ( take that to mean i am very very bored )  
Never give up Never surrender Fight with ur last breath Fight 2 live & Fight 2 survive. Never say never & never say die. There comes a time when all will die A time we transcend & attain our place afterlife. My Fight is not yet done, I'm tired & I'd like to go home, But I'm not ready to go just yet.

tenkani

 GREAT THREAD!!!!

I remember how naive I was about Canada when I first stumbled into Discover Vancouver. I saw Canada as a shining city on a hill. A utoptian society where I could finally be free of American stupidity. In all honesty, I'm still pretty naive about it, but I did learn a couple of things. Most importantly, I learned that what I most wanted to escape isn't American stupidity, but human stupidity. And Canada is full of truly stupid human beings, just like the states.

Idiocy, egotism, ignorance and bigotry of all flavors abound in Canada, and that realization brought on several weeks of dark depression, as I had to let go of my dream.

After I snapped out of it, I realized that Canada still has some advantages. Despite their (as Dissident already mentioned) stained history, their foreign policy is much less offensive than that of the U.S. Whether this is due to an inherently less interventionalist perspective, or to the fact that the Canadian economy and military is feeble...well, I think it's probably a combination of the two.
   
For thou art with me; thy cream and thy sugar they comfort me
Thou preparest a carafe before me in the presence of Juan Valdez
Thou anointest my day with pep; my mug runneth over
Surely richness and taste shall follow me all the days of my life
And I will dwell in the house of coffee forever.

Dissident

Or the fact that the US shook off its Colonial status by armed Revolution; the Canadians (sort of) nearly 100 years later, by negotiation and appeasement.  Who still has a monarch on their currency?
 
fenec rawks!

tenkani

 [span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"]Who still has a monarch on their currency?[/span]

Yes well, I hear we plan to introduce a new $1,000 bill with Goerge Bush's head on it.
Close enough     ;)
 
EDIT: I was lying about the $1,000 bill. On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me.
For thou art with me; thy cream and thy sugar they comfort me
Thou preparest a carafe before me in the presence of Juan Valdez
Thou anointest my day with pep; my mug runneth over
Surely richness and taste shall follow me all the days of my life
And I will dwell in the house of coffee forever.

Lise

Dissident wrote:
Or the fact that the US shook off its Colonial status by armed Revolution; the Canadians (sort of) nearly 100 years later, by negotiation and appeasement.  Who still has a monarch on their currency?

 
     AUSTRALIA. Long live the Queen!!!!!

  The monarch is just a figure head. We all listen to the governor general's comments and so forth but there's really no power. To be honest, I think I rather have the monarch face on our dollar notes than say.... oh, the current prime minister. Come to think of it, maybe we should just stamp tenkani's face all over our bills and be done with it.

  And SD, don't worry about what others think about your view. You're entitled to think whatever the hell you want. We need more ppl like you in Canada.
Always end the name of your child with a vowel, so that when you yell the name will carry.
Bill Cosby.

tenkani

LOL! I agree with Lise. Sorry if my post sounded harsh, SD. I was just very dissapointed after learning that Canadians are not all that different from Americans. They just have a slightly less disgusting system of government, better health care (although some would say this is debatable) and tend to make fewer enemies around the world.

They aren't the bastion of liberalism I had expected. They can't even make up their minds about marijuana decriminalization for shits sake. A country that throws people in prison for growing a relatively harmless plant is not exactly what I would call evolved.
 
For thou art with me; thy cream and thy sugar they comfort me
Thou preparest a carafe before me in the presence of Juan Valdez
Thou anointest my day with pep; my mug runneth over
Surely richness and taste shall follow me all the days of my life
And I will dwell in the house of coffee forever.

Lise

tek-san - if you're basing your view on what Canadians are like after DV, you're sorely mistaken. Most of the weirdoes on board don't represent what the majority of Canadians are. Most DVers come from.........[FONT size=1] the states. oops. [/FONT]
Always end the name of your child with a vowel, so that when you yell the name will carry.
Bill Cosby.

tenkani

Too late, Lise!
I'm not just basing my opinions only on DV.
I read news stories and whatnot about your great nation, and see evidence constantly that it is far from free of ignorance, bigotry and nationalist fervor.

But as far as DV goes, although I have met a number of wonderful people there (yourself among them) I have also bumped heads with countless Canadians whose world views are at least as warped and depraved as folks I have chatted with on American bases. People are people and Canadians (although many of them would like to believe otherwise) are just as gullible and self-deluded as Americans in many cases (and not nearly as polite as their reputations would suggest).

Don't get me wrong, overall I think I'd rather be living in Canada, but the difference is not nearly as great as I had expected. And probably not enough for me to ever go through the hassle of immigration.
 
For thou art with me; thy cream and thy sugar they comfort me
Thou preparest a carafe before me in the presence of Juan Valdez
Thou anointest my day with pep; my mug runneth over
Surely richness and taste shall follow me all the days of my life
And I will dwell in the house of coffee forever.